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Brian Fowler
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2 minutes ago, Smelly McUgly said:

I just want an '80s NWA tribute promotion without all the icky '80s Southern social and political views. That would get me watching. 

that's exactly what NXT is I'd say. AEW could be another NXT and I wouldn't complain.  I'd watch it. I'm not sure NXT translates to a wide audience but they do sell out arenas for all their big events so maybe?  

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Thing about "Impact's formula drove off their audience" is that was also the exact same formula that saw the audience increase from 200,000 to 400,000 weekly viewers earlier in the year. 

As for "pure sports build", I think the two examples everyone loves are Brock/Rock and the one Joe/Angle build that allegedly got TNA it's only real strong buyrate ever.

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2 hours ago, Edwin said:

Things I think AEW should look into if they land a TV deal and want to feel like an alternative:

  1. No on camera authority figures that take up a lot of the time from the show and spotlight from the guys in the ring (namely a heel authority figure trying to screw over the faces)
  2. No lame in ring contract signings that end with predictable attacks, throws through tables and/or pull apart brawls
  3. Starting the weekly program with a proper match instead of a lame 20 minute in ring promo or lengthy segment (although this would be understandable for the first episode)
  4. If they sign guys who worked for WWE -- don't have them cut 15 minute promos in their debut about how miserable they were working for WWE while trashing Vince, HHH and co. and how now they can be proper reslerz instead of sport entertainers

I'm sure there's other things I'm forgetting, but that would be a good start imo.

I like the cut of your jib.

I would say yes to ...

1) Managers (as has been mentioned).  Nothing overwhelming, but a Heenan Family type of stable.  If an on-screen authority figure is used, the Jack Tunney/Jim Crockett, "less is more" approach is best.

2) Pertaining to contract signings, I wouldn't mind faux press conferences, or the boardroom signings like the Jack Tunney or Jim Crockett interventions of yore.

3) Agreed, no more ramblings.  No mutual assisting about "making waves/impacts/differences/innovations".  More wrestling.  Hey, while we're on it, very few non-finishes or run-in fuckery finishes.

4) Yes, no burning bridges, shoot dumb shit from former WWE employees.  We get it; if you liked it, you'd still be there.

5) My personal wish: Utilize the Chikara 3-pt system.  I was always an NWA/JCP guy back in the days, but I did like how Hogan had a new challenger almost every month.  You didn't have the same main event for 3-4 straight supercards.  Make each victory matter.

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1 minute ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

So,  I guess maybe Meltzer and some of these dudes want a promotion to take many of those elements and pretend that the promotion is UFC without it being an actual legitimate competition.  

The highest drawing UFC events in 2018 were all very much something out of the attitude era and Meltzer loathed all of it (the Brooklyn bus thing with Conor, Conor/Khabib, and Jon Jones drug test saga). The highest drawing events in boxing of 2018 were something out of WWE in the past. When Tyson Fury sat up from a Deontay Wilder knockdown...what was the first thing people referenced? That's right... the goddamn Undertaker.

They have pre- and post- shows for reality shows. That's not something that's exclusive for sports. 

9 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

The trophies and pageantry.  Also,  most of the stories being about championships or who is better in the ring

Hasn't this been part of pro wrestling for like..you know..forever?

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10 minutes ago, Thibs said:

I just gave you some of their top talking points that are used on a constant basis, that are regularly repeated in message boards and that several companies adhere to in their booking— ROH, NJPW, NXT and to a lesser extend MLW and Impact. If you don’t understand that explanation idk what to tell you.

You don't have a great grasp of it, but I admire that.

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9 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said:

Thing about "Impact's formula drove off their audience" is that was also the exact same formula that saw the audience increase from 200,000 to 400,000 weekly viewers earlier in the year. 

As for "pure sports build", I think the two examples everyone loves are Brock/Rock and the one Joe/Angle build that allegedly got TNA it's only real strong buyrate ever.

It really wasn’t the same exactly formula. They started booking a way more simplistic show this year where the main selling point most weeks was what matches you will see and how great they’re going to be. As opposed to what storylines and angles might get progressed. Its a noticeable difference. And the audience turned it off.

Impact’s main event storylines this year consisted of randomly putting the champion and challenger into a match and have them cut promos every week saying that they’re better than the other one. 

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I just started rewatching old '96 Raw episodes on the WWE Network and they are delightful. 1 hour long (about 45 minutes if you subtract commercial time). You get a few matches, some banger video packages and an interview or two. Tune in neck week to see ~The Undertaker~. I wonder if a company like AEW could recreate the 1 hour type of show. That way they're not over exposing a potentially small roster. No need for overly long bits, but the few they have would stand out. Have it tight and well presented, you leave wanting more and never being bored or fading out.

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1 minute ago, OctopusCinema said:

I just started rewatching old '96 Raw episodes on the WWE Network and they are delightful. 1 hour long (about 45 minutes if you subtract commercial time). You get a few matches, some banger video packages and an interview or two. Tune in neck week to see ~The Undertaker~. I wonder if a company like AEW could recreate the 1 hour type of show. That way they're not over exposing a potentially small roster. No need for overly long bits, but the few they have would stand out. Have it tight and well presented, you leave wanting more and never being bored or fading out.

These were the same Raw’s that we’re getting their asses handed to them by Nitro which was a much more compelling and exciting show, correct?

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6 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

The highest drawing UFC events in 2018 were all very much something out of the attitude era and Meltzer loathed all of it (the Brooklyn bus thing with Conor, Conor/Khabib, and Jon Jones drug test saga). The highest drawing events in boxing of 2018 were something out of WWE in the past. When Tyson Fury sat up from a Deontay Wilder knockdown...what was the first thing people referenced? That's right... the goddamn Undertaker.

They have pre- and post- shows for reality shows. That's not something that's exclusive for sports. 

Hasn't this been part of pro wrestling for like..you know..forever?

Except... for.... you know.... the period of time that it was the most successful. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

At what point in pro wrestling did folks not cut promos on each other?

Thesz spoke to a newspaper about Gotch, calling him a "dirty wrestler."  So, at least as far back as that.

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5 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

At what point in pro wrestling did folks not cut promos on each other?

Who said anything about cutting promos?

Your statment about “hasn’t this been part of pro wrestling forever” was in response to Niners Fan talking about storylines focusing on championships and who’s better in the ring. 

Regardless, to bottom line this, all I’m saying is that if they get on a serious TV network, they’re going to have to treat it like a TV show instead of an Indy supercard based on workrate. 

 

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Someone mentioned that no one wants to watch jobber matches in this day and age and yet NXT does just fine with that.

Look, the formula for AEW to be successful is pretty simple. Offer something for everyone and don't script the shit out of everything. Wrestling is at its very best when the performers just do their fucking thing and don't have to follow a gigantic script. You're going to have an audience that wants a hard hitting style, you'll have an audience that fully buys into the wackiness that we saw with Joey Ryan and Adam Page, part of that audience is just going to want to see wrestlers cut passionate promos about their position and what they want and who they're going to take it from, etc.

From there, you eventually mix and match this shit. Hypothetically speaking, what happens when someone like Joey Ryan crosses paths with Penta? What happens when someone not known for showing a ton of heart and passion decides to step up to Cody and give it everything they've got? That's when you start making compelling television to find out exactly what will happen. Beyond that, don't do the WWE thing where you constantly have matches between the guys feuding with each other. There's just no excuse for that and it burns out your audience. No one knows when there's an actual blowoff because there aren't blowoffs anymore. No match actually has that big match feel because you see it multiple times on Raw and SDL. Stay away from that shit and you're golden.

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6 minutes ago, Thibs said:

Who said anything about cutting promos?

Your statment about “hasn’t this been part of pro wrestling forever” 

Quote

on championships 

Quote

who’s better in the ring. 

Have these two things always not existed in pro wrestling for centuries?

Also, saying your better than someone is a promo.

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21 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Have these two things always not existed in pro wrestling for centuries?

Also, saying your better than someone is a promo.

They’ve existed but they were assumed, not overtly emphasized, and not used to beat the audience over the head with every week. And they weren’t the main storytelling tools like they are now.  

Yes, wrestler A thinks they’re better than Wrestler B and wants the belt. We get that. It doesn’t need to be repeated 20 times. And its certainly not a story. 

When that’s the crux of your storytelling, you get a boring product that not many people are going to watch. As Impact just found out.

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18 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Hasn't this been part of pro wrestling for like..you know..forever?

Not during the "Russo years" in both WWE and then later in WCW they went away from titles meaning much,  every character had to be outlandish, it was no longer about the actual competition and very few of the payoffs actually happened in the ring.  The shows became mostly about backstage shit and authority figures and whatever else that had nothing to do with who the best athletes were.  

WWE in the present day is now a mix of what wrestling used to be about the titles and the competition but also there's still a lot of the Russo elements in there..  I guess the argument being made is that they should do away completely with anything to do with The Attitude Era style..  

However,  that's the era where they had their highest viewership.  I'm not sold on this idea that gimmicks should go away or outlandish characters and stories should go away.  I just think they have been written really fucking poorly..  

Nobody cares how crazy a show gets as long as it's written well.  WWE has never lost viewers because it's less like the classic days of pro wrestling.  They lost viewers because the shit made no sense and everything got really stupid.  

I think the best way is a mix of larger than life characters and story arcs to go along with an emphasis on a better in-ring product.  I think in this day and age you need to do both. 

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10 minutes ago, Craig H said:

Someone mentioned that no one wants to watch jobber matches in this day and age and yet NXT does just fine with that.

Look, the formula for AEW to be successful is pretty simple. Offer something for everyone and don't script the shit out of everything. Wrestling is at its very best when the performers just do their fucking thing and don't have to follow a gigantic script. You're going to have an audience that wants a hard hitting style, you'll have an audience that fully buys into the wackiness that we saw with Joey Ryan and Adam Page, part of that audience is just going to want to see wrestlers cut passionate promos about their position and what they want and who they're going to take it from, etc.

From there, you eventually mix and match this shit. Hypothetically speaking, what happens when someone like Joey Ryan crosses paths with Penta? What happens when someone not known for showing a ton of heart and passion decides to step up to Cody and give it everything they've got? That's when you start making compelling television to find out exactly what will happen. Beyond that, don't do the WWE thing where you constantly have matches between the guys feuding with each other. There's just no excuse for that and it burns out your audience. No one knows when there's an actual blowoff because there aren't blowoffs anymore. No match actually has that big match feel because you see it multiple times on Raw and SDL. Stay away from that shit and you're golden.

I agree on the scripting thing. The more improv they can incorporate the better. While they shouldn’t look to rip off storylines from 20 years ago, the Nitro sense of unpredictability is something they should strive for. 

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25 minutes ago, Thibs said:

These were the same Raw’s that we’re getting their asses handed to them by Nitro which was a much more compelling and exciting show, correct?

Probably. I wasn't posting off of your series of quoted replies. So I'm not sure if this was a fired up sassy retwart or not.

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23 minutes ago, Thibs said:

They’ve existed but they were assumed, not overtly emphasized, and not used to beat the audience over the head with every week. 

Yeah, I don't think you were paying that close attention.

22 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

Not during the "Russo years" in both WWE and then later in WCW they went away from titles meaning much,  every character had to be outlandish, it was no longer about the actual competition and very few of the payoffs actually happened in the ring.  The shows became mostly about backstage shit and authority figures and whatever else that had nothing to do with who the best athletes were.  

Yes, it was. Wrestling always had outlandish characters before Russo even got involved. Russo just took advantage of the timing of bringing the Jerry Springer and Howard Stern car crash TV/radio vibe that was quintessential for the mid 90s to early 2000s. Timing was important, especially when you look at ECW, where you were always going to get that at some point. Russo and Ferrara (and Vince McMahon because he can't be totally absolved) just happen to be the guys. You still had great wrestling matches thrown in there w/ great workers from different places and enough intriguing characters that felt authentic *enough* to keep people involved in between some of the terribleness. Now that the "creative team" is a central part of pro wrestling, you're always going to have to deal with that even when there are more talented wrestlers and performers than ever.

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2 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Yeah, I don't think you were paying that close attention.

Yes, it was. Wrestling always had outlandish characters before Russo even got involved. Russo just took advantage of the timing of bringing the Jerry Springer and Howard Stern car crash TV/radio vibe that was quintessential for the mid 90s to early 2000s. Timing was important, especially when you look at ECW, where you were always going to get that at some point. Russo and Ferrara (and Vince because he can't be totally absolved) just happen to be the guys. You still had great wrestling matches thrown in there w/ great workers from different places and enough intriguing characters that felt authentic *enough* to keep people involved in between some of the terribleness. Now that the "creative team" is a central part of pro wrestling,  you're always going to have to deal with that even when there are more talented wrestlers and performers than ever.

Clearly you weren’t paying that much attention if you think that 97-99 WWF storylines centered around being the best wrestler and wanting the belt. 

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Just now, Thibs said:

Clearly you weren’t paying that much attention if you think that 97-99 WWF storylines centered around being the best wrestler and wanting the belt. 

Even at the more practical, every team and athlete cannot say they are indeed the best. The 6-6 Boise State football team cannot say they are the best team college football if they are playing the 6-6 Louisiana Tech team in the Jolly Rancher Bowl. A Mexican cab driver boxer with a 25-24-1 record isn't saying he is the best going against a 4-0 prospect on the undercard. Even if they were, no one would watch them on that basis.

What you're saying is something specific to pro wrestling, not sports.

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5 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Yes, it was. Wrestling always had outlandish characters before Russo even got involved. Russo just took advantage of the timing of bringing the Jerry Springer and Howard Stern car crash TV/radio vibe that was quintessential for the mid 90s to early 2000s. Timing was important, especially when you look at ECW, where you were always going to get that at some point. Russo and Ferrara (and Vince McMahon because he can't be totally absolved) just happen to be the guys. You still had great wrestling matches thrown in there w/ great workers from different places and enough intriguing characters that felt authentic *enough* to keep people involved in between some of the terribleness. Now that the "creative team" is a central part of pro wrestling,  you're always going to have to deal with that even when there are more talented wrestlers and performers than ever.

There were outlandish characters prior to Russo of course especially when Vince wanted everyone to have a day job..  but the difference is most of the action was still kept in the ring and they also separated a lot of the outlandish shit from the guys like Bret and Hennig who were still holding down the I.C. title scene and having great matches with only the title being on the line as the main story behind the contest..  

In the Russo years we did not have much of that at all.  At least I don't remember it. I don't remember any emphasis on who the best in-ring competitors were.  Back in the 80s Jesse Ventura would be on commentary and putting over what a ring technician was and how smart they were moving in the ring.  Putting over what the hold was accomplishing etc..  what the gameplan was or what the strategy was.  

Jerry Lawler was not doing any of this in the late 90s. The matches were all five minutes and then some bullshit interference and then off to the next segment. 

I don't think they added in-ring competition back into the scene until 2000 when guys like Eddie and Benoit got there and started wrestling with Jericho and Angle. 

I couldn't give you a top ten list of MOTY candidates in WWE from 1999.  There were some "fun" brawls in the main event scene but all loaded with interference and other craziness at play. 

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I still don't understand what this whole tangent has to do with AEW.  Again, based on the content they have produced for themselves and other promotions, I don't see any reason to be concerned that they're going to go with the ol' Pure Sports Build for this promotion.  Cody just got an exorcism on BTE, for cryin' out loud.

I feel like Thibs is just taking this as an opportunity to rant about one of his pet issues, which has been ongoing in the TNA threads for what feels like years now.

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2 minutes ago, EVA said:

I still don't understand what this whole tangent has to do with AEW.  Again, based on the content they have produced for themselves and other promotions, I don't see any reason to be concerned that they're going to go with the ol' Pure Sports Build for this promotion.  Cody just got an exorcism on BTE, for cryin' out loud.

I feel like Thibs is just taking this as an opportunity to rant about one of his pet issues, which has been ongoing in the TNA threads for what feels like years now.

Thibs is doing his best with Butler gone. 

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2 minutes ago, EVA said:

I still don't understand what this whole tangent has to do with AEW.  Again, based on the content they have produced for themselves and other promotions, I don't see any reason to be concerned that they're going to go with the ol' Pure Sports Build for this promotion.  Cody just got an exorcism on BTE, for cryin' out loud.

I feel like Thibs is just taking this as an opportunity to rant about one of his pet issues, which has been ongoing in the TNA threads for what feels like years now.

Not at all. Just pointing out that they’re going to have to be prepared to treat this like a TV show if they do get on a big network. 

If Cody can translate what he does on BTE to a TV platform then great. 

I just don’t want an opportunity like this to be squandered is all. 

@Octopus: Who needs Butler when you have a 2018 Rose. 

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