LoneWolf&Subs Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 8 minutes ago, Edwin said: Things I think AEW should look into if they land a TV deal and want to feel like an alternative: No on camera authority figures that take up a lot of the time from the show and spotlight from the guys in the ring (namely a heel authority figure trying to screw over the faces) No lame in ring contract signings that end with predictable attacks, throws through tables and/or pull apart brawls Starting the weekly program with a proper match instead of a lame 20 minute in ring promo or lengthy segment (although this would be understandable for the first episode) If they sign guys who worked for WWE -- don't have them cut 15 minute promos in their debut about how miserable they were working for WWE while trashing Vince, HHH and co. and how now they can be proper reslerz now instead of sport entertainers I'm sure there's other things I'm forgetting, but that would be a good start imo. Wrestlers being allowed to look into the camera, and cut mini promos without a live mic before entering the ring. Basically do everything WCW did before 98. Yes even hire Ryback just so Kenny can drop him on his noggin with the One Winged Angel in a 5 minute squash. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 The piss-takes they did on the WGN pre-show before All In (Pyro! Surprise guests! Give-aways!) makes me think they're keenly aware of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thibs Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 19 minutes ago, Edwin said: Things I think AEW should look into if they land a TV deal and want to feel like an alternative: No on camera authority figures that take up a lot of the time from the show and spotlight from the guys in the ring (namely a heel authority figure trying to screw over the faces) No lame in ring contract signings that end with predictable attacks, throws through tables and/or pull apart brawls Starting the weekly program with a proper match instead of a lame 20 minute in ring promo or lengthy segment (although this would be understandable for the first episode) If they sign guys who worked for WWE -- don't have them cut 15 minute promos in their debut about how miserable they were working for WWE while trashing Vince, HHH and co. and how now they can be proper reslerz instead of sport entertainers I'm sure there's other things I'm forgetting, but that would be a good start imo. These talking points are old and tired and don’t apply anymore. This isn’t the attitude era or the mid 2000’s where authority figures and 20 minute promos are the norm. The fact is that most wrestling presented right now is already heavily tilted to the stuff you listed— long matches, sports based presentation, not a lot of angles, etc etc. Even WWE, while still doing some of their goofy shit, is more wrestling/workrate centered then ever before. Doing the things you listed will not make them feel like an alternative. It’ll make them another NJPW/ROH/NXT knockoff. And that’s the last thing they need. Impact just gave us a year off long 20+ minute opening matches, no opening in ring promos, etc. And the audience completely cratered. If they get a legit TV deal there will be ratings expectations. And the thing they need do above all else is focus on creating a compelling, must see TV show that gets people to watch every week. And simply putting on good matches will not achieve that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonnyLaw Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 51 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said: That's actually one of them that's being discontinued It could be nothing, but I assume those shirts are still good sellers, so it is still a little surprising that they would completely stop selling them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonnyLaw Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 We should start taking bets on who will be the first guy to make worked shoot comments about Cody and/or the Bucks running the company and holding people down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Cincinnati Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 17 minutes ago, Thibs said: These talking points are old and tired and don’t apply anymore. This isn’t the attitude era or the mid 2000’s where authority figures and 20 minute promos are the norm. The fact is that most wrestling presented right now is already heavily tilted to the stuff you listed— long matches, sports based presentation, not a lot of angles, etc etc. Even WWE, while still doing some of their goofy shit, is more wrestling/workrate centered then ever before. The post you quoted didn't ask for any of those things. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 Sports based presentation sounds like something WWE came up with. What does that mean? Like a scoreboard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thibs Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 11 minutes ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said: The post you quoted didn't ask for any of those things. Yeah but it was hinted. Opening the show with a 20 minute match. I don’t want to get into a pissing contest about matches vs. storylines. I understand what this groups core fanbase wants. I’m jus saying, if they get in a sizeable network, they’re going to have to produce a compelling week to week show outside of the matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thibs Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 Just now, Elsalvajeloco said: Sports based presentation sounds like something WWE came up with. What does that mean? Like a scoreboard? Meltzer and Keller have been using that term for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 Just now, Thibs said: Meltzer and Keller have been using that term for years. So what you're saying is it doesn't mean anything. 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Cincinnati Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, Thibs said: Yeah but it was hinted. It really wasn't. Not wanting the same tired wrestling tropes doesn't automatically mean someone is looking for a straight wrestling show. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiji Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 All In had an awesome variety of styles that blended together really well. They had comedy and brawling (Hangman/Janela/Ryan), they had the New Japan style match (Omega/Penta + Okada/Marty), they had the WWE style multiperson match where everybody gets a moment to shine in neat clean segments (the battle royal), the Wrestlemania-esque celebrity match, and the main event rushed spotfest. It had something for most everybody and while it would be harder to pull off on a weekly basis, I don't think cornering themselves into one style of presentation would make sense. Nobody's expecting a UWF approach from them but I think it's fair to expect that they avoid the major cliches that have held back WWE for so long. What's really important is continuity and respecting their fanbase, which they did masterfully with BTE and the payoffs at All In. They can probably fill a void between NJPW's approach of more subtle, in-ring storytelling and character work (though they do an awful lot of post-match attacks these days) and WWE's, where nothing matters except for that moment they want to build as memorable for that day before everybody's memory resets. As somebody said, just do what WCW did before '98 (without some of the dumber decisions, please). 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thibs Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 26 minutes ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said: It really wasn't. Not wanting the same tired wrestling tropes doesn't automatically mean someone is looking for a straight wrestling show. Opening the show with a 20 minute match every week is a tired wrestling trope in 2019. 27 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said: So what you're saying is it doesn't mean anything. No, that’s what you’re inferring. Either becuase you just started following wrestling yesterday or you’re trolling. Presenting wrestling like a real sport is something the dirtsheet writers and the IWC by extension have been wanting for a while. And when you look at ROH, NJPW, NXT, and Impact to a certain extent, they’ve gotten a lot of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edwin Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 Alright, let's unpack some of that reply as I didn't even mention most things in that reply... 1 hour ago, Thibs said: These talking points are old and tired and don’t apply anymore. This isn’t the attitude era or the mid 2000’s where authority figures and 20 minute promos are the norm. These talkings point all apply. Hop on the WWE Network and pull up a random RAW or SD from mid to late 1997 until now and 99% of them start with a lengthy, drawn out promo heavily featuring the top face, heel and/or authority figure. 1 hour ago, Thibs said: The fact is that most wrestling presented right now is already heavily tilted to the stuff you listed— long matches, sports based presentation, not a lot of angles, etc etc. Even WWE, while still doing some of their goofy shit, is more wrestling/workrate centered then ever before. @West Newbury Bad Boyalready covered this part here: 46 minutes ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said: The post you quoted didn't ask for any of those things. 1 hour ago, Thibs said: Doing the things you listed will not make them feel like an alternative. It’ll make them another NJPW/ROH/NXT knockoff. And that’s the last thing they need. The things I mentioned are mostly things they should not do to feel like a mainstream alternative... New Japan, ROH nor NXT are mainstream alternatives... AEW is clearly aiming to become a mainstream alternative and to be a mainstream alternative, you have to do things differently. Following WWE's tired format won't turn them into an alternative. 1 hour ago, Thibs said: Impact just gave us a year off long 20+ minute opening matches, no opening in ring promos, etc. And the audience completely cratered. Impact had the chance to possibly become an alternative, but they decided to try and turn into WCW 2.0 since the NWA-TNA days in Nashville by bringing in Russo and working his worked shoot garbage that obviously failed in WCW. Them trying to turn the corner now was a bit late as they have lost a lot of steam and have been on channels no one really has/watches for a while now... 1 hour ago, Thibs said: If they get a legit TV deal there will be ratings expectations. And the thing they need do above all else is focus on creating a compelling, must see TV show that gets people to watch every week. And simply putting on good matches will not achieve that. I never said said good matches would achieve that, but also cosplaying WWE 2.0 following their same format won't accomplish achieve that either given WWE's own struggle with the continuous rating drop... However, if they want to provide a mainstream alternative to WWE, then they have to do things differently which was my original point at hand. Edit TL/DR version: 29 minutes ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said: It really wasn't. Not wanting the same tired wrestling tropes doesn't automatically mean someone is looking for a straight wrestling show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edwin Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 3 minutes ago, Thibs said: Opening the show with a 20 minute match every week is a tired wrestling trope in 2019. Alright, why do you keep bringing this up? No one said they should kickoff their weekly show with a lengthy 20 minute match every week. They can simply start the show with a simple 5 minute match and it would already feel like a mainstream alternative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thibs Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 1 minute ago, Edwin said: Alright, let's unpack some of that reply as I didn't even mention most things in that reply... These talkings point all apply. Hop on the WWE Network and pull up a random RAW or SD from mid to late 1997 until now and 99% of them start with a lengthy, drawn out promo heavily featuring the top face, heel and/or authority figure. @West Newbury Bad Boyalready covered this part here: The things I mentioned are mostly things they should not do to feel like a mainstream alternative... New Japan, ROH nor NXT are mainstream alternatives... AEW is clearly aiming to become a mainstream alternative and to be a mainstream alternative, you have to do things differently. Following WWE's tired format won't turn them into an alternative. Impact had the chance to possibly become an alternative, but they decided to try and turn into WCW 2.0 since the NWA-TNA days in Nashville by bringing in Russo and working his worked shoot garbage that obviously failed in WCW. Them trying to turn the corner now was a bit late as they have lost a lot of steam and have been on channels no one really has/watches for a while now... I never said said good matches would achieve that, but also cosplaying WWE 2.0 won't achieve that... However, if they want to provide a mainstream alternative to WWE, then they have to do things differently. I don’t disagree with a lot of that. Regarding Impact, though, the argument that they’re too late just doesn’t apply. They lost 2/3 of the audience they ALREADY HAD on POP by doing the things they did this past year. Putting on that type of show drove people away that were already watching. But you’re right... I’m not suggesting they be a WWE knockoff. I’m simply saying that they need to present a weekly compelling show where things are actually happening and progressing. It needs to have the unpredictability of Nitro while also appealing to their core audience. They can’t just book the TV like they did All In. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyJ Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 57 minutes ago, Thibs said: If they get a legit TV deal there will be ratings expectations. And the thing they need do above all else is focus on creating a compelling, must see TV show that gets people to watch every week. And simply putting on good matches will not achieve that. Right. What Cody and the Bucks tapped into is good old-fashioned promoting around a one-time only special event still draws huge. Less is more in wrestling. Unfortunately, I do not know how that works with ratings expectations. The days of sitting through jobber matches are over. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thibs Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, JohnnyJ said: Right. What Cody and the Bucks tapped into is good old-fashioned promoting around a one-time only special event still draws huge. Less is more in wrestling. Unfortunately, I do not know how that works with ratings expectations. The days of sitting through jobber matches are over. I think you tap into what’s been missing since WCW. Unpredictability, less scripting, more improv, and solid macro storytelling. They’re going to have to strategically get TV people who can work with the wrestling people. The show needs to be appointment TV otherwise idk how it’ll succeed from a ratings POV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 6 minutes ago, Thibs said: No, that’s what you’re inferring. Either becuase you just started following wrestling yesterday or you’re trolling. I just literally started watching wrestling like 5 minutes ago. It's delightful. 6 minutes ago, Thibs said: Presenting wrestling like a real sport is something the dirtsheet writers and the IWC by extension have been wanting for a while. And when you look at ROH, NJPW, NXT, and Impact to a certain extent, they’ve gotten a lot of it. But what does that mean exactly? All sports, at least the ones that are television anyways, have storylines and ridiculous shit that occurs. The luxury of pro wrestling is you get to creatively come up with that stuff so it fits your narrative. So by design pro wrestling is already "sports based". What you mean is some promotions maybe more grounded than a Lucha Underground or CHIKARA or WWE where dudes get trucks and vehicles hurled on top of them and show up fine the very next week. The thing is if you write it well enough, people will come back still. NBA, NFL, MLB, boxing, and MMA don't draw on the legitimacy of their groundedness. If that was the case, what would differentiate the stars from the absolute bums? Also, who would come to those events if everything was the same? Essentially, sports based presentation doesn't mean anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thibs Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 9 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said: I just literally started watching wrestling like 5 minutes ago. It's delightful. But what does that mean exactly? All sports, at least the ones that are television anyways, have storylines and ridiculous shit that occurs. The luxury of pro wrestling is you get to creatively come up with that stuff so it fits your narrative. So by design pro wrestling is already "sports based". What you mean is some promotions maybe more grounded than a Lucha Underground or CHIKARA or WWE where dudes get trucks and vehicles hurled on top of them and show up fine the very next week. The thing is if you write it well enough, people will come back still. NBA, NFL, MLB, boxing, and MMA don't draw on the legitimacy of their groundedness. If that was the case, what would differentiate the stars from the absolute bums? Also, who would come to those events if everything was the same? Essentially, sports based presentation doesn't mean anything. What it means in the wrestling sense, and in the sense of what the aforementioned dirtsheet writers have been pushing for, is presenting wrestling like a real athletic contest when it blatantly is not. The focus being on the wrestling, providing long matches, essentially having most of the storylines be wrestlers telling other wrestlers “I’m the best, I want the belt” every week, always having clean finishes, etc, etc. Just go listen to one of Wade Keller’s brilliant fantasy booking diatribes and you’ll get what i mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kang Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 There's lots of lasped fans and possible casual fans not watching wrestling anymore simply because they don't find it entertaining anymore. I also remember it's reported that matches get less views over promos. Especially long workrate ones. Save the best matches for ppv or tv specials. They don't need jobber matches but they can use angles and skits more. More character work too. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, Thibs said: What it means in the wrestling sense, and in the sense of what the aforementioned dirtsheet writers have been pushing for, is presenting wrestling like a real athletic contest when it blatantly is not. The focus being on the wrestling, providing long matches, essentially having most of the storylines be wrestlers telling other wrestlers “I’m the best, I want the belt” every week, always having clean finishes, etc, etc. Just go listen to one of Wade Keller’s brilliant fantasy booking diatribes and you’ll get what i mean. If you poorly explained it here, why would I then go to something you recommended for it to be explained there? I'm saying that just because Meltzer or Keller have used it doesn't mean it makes sense and should be repeated as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirSmUgly Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 I just want an '80s NWA tribute promotion without all the icky '80s Southern social and political views. That would get me watching. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 WWE and New Japan have both done a combination of things that could be considered "sport based" I suppose. NJPW has always had that. The tournaments and post-match press conferences and the like all make the promotion seem as if it's a real combat sport. The trophies and pageantry. Also, most of the stories being about championships or who is better in the ring, athletes dressing like they are a part of an MMA team and bringing an entourage to the ring, etc. Gedo looking like a corner man. In WWE the only thing that I would consider sport based is the pre-show programming they do where there is a table of one announcer and 3 former in-ring competitors discussing the upcoming show and giving their takes and opinions, plus predictions.. they present it like it's College Gameday or a UFC wrap up show on FS1. So, I guess maybe Meltzer and some of these dudes want a promotion to take many of those elements and pretend that the promotion is UFC without it being an actual legitimate competition. I don't know if that would work honestly. I think casual fans are still more interested in THE UNDERTAKER and larger than life crazy shit. They would rather watch Vince McMahon cut a promo where he's tearing people down and making insane faces etc.. That's my belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thibs Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said: If you poorly explained it here, why would I then go to something you recommended for it to be explained there? I'm saying that just because Meltzer or Keller have used it doesn't mean it makes sense and should be repeated as such. I just gave you some of their top talking points that are used on a constant basis, that are regularly repeated in message boards and that several companies adhere to in their booking— ROH, NJPW, NXT and to a lesser extend MLW and Impact. If you don’t understand that explanation idk what to tell you. It doesn’t make much sense, we agree on that. However given the players involved with this AEW, its relavent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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