Thibs Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 2 hours ago, Brian Fowler said: Fuck the Russo crash tv pacing. It makes it impossible for any storyline to land because you've already moved on to the next dumbass segment. 1999 is the worst year in wrestling I've ever seen. The matches sucked. The stories sucked. The pacing sucked. You want to see a perfectly paced pro wrestling show, watch early Nitros. Fuck this mindset, its so beyond stale. It makes it supposedly impossible for any storyline to land.... yet people were hooked every week and couldn’t wait to watch. You may not have liked it but clearly a lot of people did. Nitro was good too in a different way. But citing Nitro, which 1999 WWF, the worst year in pro wrestling according to you, was kicking the shit out of on a weekly basis using the same formula you’re shitting on... doesn’t do much for your argument. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AxB Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 Popularity =/= Quality. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 I cited early Nitro, not 1999. 99 WCW fucking sucked too. Then they hired Russo and sucked even more. I didn't say 1999 WWF sucked I said 1999 wrestling sucked (at least in the US) WWF got popular because of Austin. The undercard shit was terrible. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thibs Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 10 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said: I cited early Nitro, not 1999. 99 WCW fucking sucked too. Then they hired Russo and sucked even more. I didn't say 1999 WWF sucked I said 1999 wrestling sucked (at least in the US) WWF got popular because of Austin. The undercard shit was terrible. The pacing of Nitro didn’t change much from 95/96 to 99, which is what you cited. And the storylines were equally as bad during both periods, before the nWo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thibs Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 1 hour ago, SorceressKnight said: Honestly, that's kind of a catch-22...part of writing a show with Russo's strengths is the willingness to accept they can't ALL be winners, and a very large portion of these storylines will be utter shit. Even if you're doing it with a roster of 45-50 and getting some good storylines, but about half are shit when you have 10-20 storylines, expand that to a roster of roughly 200 people in between Raw/SD/NXT/NXT UK. With nearly hundreds of storylines to work with...shit, if even only 10% of those storylines are any good and the rest are shit you'd be a writing GOD. I mean, there’s ways you can circumvent that. You don’t need to go full bore with it. Instead of giving everyone a meaningful storyline start with 70% or so. Instead of having crash tv all over your show, intertwine it with quality matches so you can have the best of both worlds. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edwin Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 If you like Joey, give this a watch. It's an old, but great documentary. It's from the around the time he began breaking out on the indy scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nice Guy Eddie Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 42 minutes ago, AxB said: Popularity =/= Quality. I don't know why some people have such a hard time grasping this concept. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 Dudes.. some of those 1996 era Nitros are rough. Once you get into the second hour it's Hogan promo, nothing match where nWo is still the focus, Bischoff promo, another nothing match, Outsiders promo... you hear the nWo theme or some variation 4-5 times, it's tough to get through. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thibs Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 32 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said: I don't know why some people have such a hard time grasping this concept. Not about grasping it. More so dismissing it because most people use it as a way to try to convince others that a show’s quality should be judged based on what their opinion is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thibs Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 20 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said: Dudes.. some of those 1996 era Nitros are rough. Once you get into the second hour it's Hogan promo, nothing match where nWo is still the focus, Bischoff promo, another nothing match, Outsiders promo... you hear the nWo theme or some variation 4-5 times, it's tough to get through. Or before that we had the Dungeon of Doom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nice Guy Eddie Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 11 minutes ago, Thibs said: Not about grasping it. More so dismissing it because most people use it as a way to try to convince others that a show’s quality should be judged based on what their opinion is. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I have nothing to gain if you like something or not. A show's quality should be judged on...wait for it...the actually quaility of the show. The nWo was hugely popular, but it doesn't change the quality wasn't there. I'll watch a random luchador match with no build in the middle of Nitro over anything nWo related anyday. My preference is wrestling, while you seem to prefer Vince Russo crash-TV with wrestling in the background. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raziel Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 If the Crash TV format was so fucking amazing, TNA wouldn't have been on the verge of death operating deep in the red for 10 years. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odessasteps Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 I could easily see Callis booking Impact in a crash TV style. (I dont watch it so I dont know if he has already done that) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thibs Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 7 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said: I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I have nothing to gain if you like something or not. A show's quality should be judged on...wait for it...the actually quaility of the show. The nWo was hugely popular, but it doesn't change the quality wasn't there. I'll watch a random luchador match with no build in the middle of Nitro over anything nWo related anyday. My preference is wrestling, while you seem to prefer Vince Russo crash-TV with wrestling in the background. But people have different opinions on what quality is. Therefor the only impartial metric of whether a wrestling TV show is performing or not is based on yes, how many people watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thibs Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 1 minute ago, odessasteps said: I could easily see Callis booking Impact in a crash TV style. (I dont watch it so I dont know if he has already done that) I was hoping for crash TV segments mixed with quality wrestling. Instead we got meaningless long matches, basic “I’m the best, I want the belt” storylines, barely any character development. The viewership plummeted to record lows and they got kicked off POP. To be fair, Sonjay was really the one writing. The last couple weeks have been an improvement. They still have the good matches but now there are actually story threads happening throughout the show. I like what they’re doing with Killer Kross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 The Dungeon of Doom was terrible. The pacing of Nitro, where everything flowed from segment to segment but also got enough time to breathe, and it constantly built to the next segment and the next week, was perfect. The formatting was as good as wrestling has ever been. The expansion to two hours started to drag that down, and by the middle of 96 it had lost it completely, but early Nitro is the best laid out wrestling TV show I've ever seen. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thibs Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 12 minutes ago, Raziel said: If the Crash TV format was so fucking amazing, TNA wouldn't have been on the verge of death operating deep in the red for 10 years. That had more to do with the ridiculous contracts handed out and taking the TV on the road in a foolish way. They were actually in the black in 2008/2009. Its a shame they didn’t just stay the course and went with Hogan and Bischoff. That crash TV format was netting them close to 2 million viewers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odessasteps Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 1 minute ago, Brian Fowler said: The Dungeon of Doom was terrible. The pacing of Nitro, where everything flowed from segment to segment but also got enough time to breathe, and it constantly built to the next segment and the next week, was perfect. The formatting was as good as wrestling has ever been. The expansion to two hours started to drag that down, and by the middle of 96 it had lost it completely, but early Nitro is the best laid out wrestling TV show I've ever seen. Not surprisingly, I would say Watts (83-86) had the best TV shows, in terms of logistics, pacing and effectiveness. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 NXT is a perfect layout if you ask me.. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thibs Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 11 minutes ago, odessasteps said: Not surprisingly, I would say Watts (83-86) had the best TV shows, in terms of logistics, pacing and effectiveness. Was his early 90’s WCW booking similar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odessasteps Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 2 minutes ago, Thibs said: Was his early 90’s WCW booking similar? Without having watched it since then, my gut feeling says no, probably because a) there was so much more content to produce, b) the Turner bureaucracy and likely a couple more reasons. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raziel Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 If you watched 83-86 Mid-South, you'd struggle to understand how the same guy was booking 92-93 WCW. They're night and day. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 2 minutes ago, Raziel said: If you watched 83-86 Mid-South, you'd struggle to understand how the same guy was booking 92-93 WCW. They're night and day. 1992 WCW is Dangerous Alliance stuff though I loved all that. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiji Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 1 hour ago, Thibs said: The pacing of Nitro didn’t change much from 95/96 to 99, which is what you cited. And the storylines were equally as bad during both periods, before the nWo. I know there have been like 20 replies since this statement but this is patently false. If you include quick cuts to guys aimlessly walking around backstage, Alvarez counted how many segments Russo Nitros had and it was roughly 60-70 for two weeks running. That show was ADHD in TV form. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thibs Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 5 minutes ago, Oyaji said: I know there have been like 20 replies since this statement but this is patently false. If you include quick cuts to guys aimlessly walking around backstage, Alvarez counted how many segments Russo Nitros had and it was roughly 60-70 for two weeks running. That show was ADHD in TV form. I wasn’t referring to Russo’s work in WCW. I meant the pacing from 95/96 compared to 99 before Russo came in while he was still writing for WWF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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