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MLB HOF 2019 Ballot

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Just as I always go into baseball withdrawals after the last game of the WS, I find myself thinking about the HOF. (And no, not thinking about booting people out, but in a more positive light are there any major omissions from say, pre-1970 that we should be banging the drum for?) To me, the last real major oversight had been Joe Gordon and he's in now, so is it really possible that all the worthies from 1945-1970 have been inducted? Let me toss a couple of names out and see what we come up with: Vada Pinson yes/no/maybe? Ken Boyer yes/no/maybe?

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Okay, if I messed up the format, hopefully Phil can fix it. This is the ballot that BBWA will be utilizing for the 2019 Inductees into the MLB HOF.  The first 15 are holdovers from last year ranked in order of their percentage of votes (which I didn't include). I did list number of years on the ballot as the clock is ticking on a couple of guys. Now before anyone laughs about the listing of folks like Octavio Dotel and Jon Garland, remember the rules say all you need is 10 years in the majors and you're eligible, doesn't mean anyone is going to vote for you, but at least you get your name on the ballot. 

Note: This is just the list for players, I couldn't find one for non-players, but the deal is that the BBWA voting members can select ten names from these two lists and five non-players. 

 

 

Name        Years on Ballot
Edgar Martinez        10th
Mike Mussina           6th
Roger Clemens        7th
Barry Bonds             7th
Curt Schilling           7th
Omar Vizquel           2nd
Larry Walker             9th
Fred McGriff           10th
Manny Ramirez        3rd
Jeff Kent                   6th
Gary Sheffield           5th
Billy Wagner             4th
Scott Rolen             2nd
Sammy Sosa           7th
Andruw Jones        2nd

New Nominations:
Mariano Rivera        1st
 Roy Halladay          1st
Todd Helton            1st
Andy Pettitte           1st
Lance Berkman       1st
Roy Oswalt               1st
Miguel Tejada          1st
Placido Polanco      1st
Kevin Youkilis          1st
Derek Lowe             1st
Freddy Garcia          1st
Vernon Wells           1st
Ted Lilly                    1st
Travis Hafner          1st
Jason Bay                1st
Michael Young        1st
Ryan Dempster       1st
Jon Garland             1st
Ramon Hernandez    1st
 Darren Oliver          1st
Juan Pierre              1st
Octavio Dotel          1st
Jake Westbrook     1st
 Jose Contreras      1st
 Yorvit Torrealba     1st
 

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Bonds needs to go in.  Greatest player of the generation.  Best player in baseball from 1990-2000.   Best player in baseball from 2001-  

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22 hours ago, OSJ said:

Just as I always go into baseball withdrawals after the last game of the WS, I find myself thinking about the HOF. (And no, not thinking about booting people out, but in a more positive light are there any major omissions from say, pre-1970 that we should be banging the drum for?) To me, the last real major oversight had been Joe Gordon and he's in now, so is it really possible that all the worthies from 1945-1970 have been inducted? Let me toss a couple of names out and see what we come up with: Vada Pinson yes/no/maybe? Ken Boyer yes/no/maybe?

Without going into a ton of depth, Vada is an easy no, Boyer is an easy yes. 5 Gold Gloves and an MVP for Boyer, with a decade of excellence. Pinson didn't quite get there. 

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My 10:

Edgar Martinez

Mike Mussina

Roger Clemens

Barry Bonds

Larry Walker

Manny Ramirez

Gary Sheffield

Scott Rolen

Mariano Rivera

Roy Halladay

 

JAWS has Helton as a yes, but that doesn't feel right to me.  Schilling should probably be on the list but I couldn't bring myself to vote for him.  I have much less issue with the PED guys than I do with a fucking Nazi sympathizer.  Andruw Jones would probably be 11th on my ballot

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Martinez

Mussina

Bonds

Clemens

Walker

Rolen

Jones

Rivera

Ramirez

Halladay

 

If you open the ballot up past 10 I also vote Wagner, Sheffield, Schilling, and Pettite. I could also buy arguments for McGriff, Helton, Berkman, and my favorite "clearly not but the numbers are actually arguable" case ever in Jason Bay.

 

Oh, and I'd vote Lofton and Edmunds as write in with "You fucking keep Vizquel but not these 2? You are all idiots"

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2 hours ago, Tabe said:

Without going into a ton of depth, Vada is an easy no, Boyer is an easy yes. 5 Gold Gloves and an MVP for Boyer, with a decade of excellence. Pinson didn't quite get there. 

Yep, have to agree, though Vada has a case, it's a pretty weak one. Ken Boyer, on the other hand is guilty only of playing the same position in the same league with Eddie Fucking Mathews. It's actually the original Rock Raines / Rickey Henderson scenario, or Jimmie Foxx / Babe Ruth deal. Being number #2 to the (at the time) greatest ever at the position doesn't mean you're not HOF-caliber yourself.  IMHO, Boyer is the guy that should have been inducted when they stuck in George Kell. Third has always been a position that gives the BBWA fits as they don't seem to grasp how it's the perfect blend of defense and offense. 

Ron Santo had to practically be on his deathbed to get inducted and anyone that watched Ron Santo knew they were seeing something pretty special. I think Ken is also hurt by having a brother who was a better defensive player at the same position, but yeah, I think we've got someone to bang the drum for...

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Edgar Martinez        
Roger Clemens      
Barry Bonds            
Fred McGriff          
Manny Ramirez        
Gary Sheffield           
 Sammy Sosa          
Mariano Rivera        
 Roy Halladay          

write-in: Kenny Lofton

I can't believe that I was able to hold my nose and vote for Roger Clemens, but damn it, he does belong in. 

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I think the new HOF era people are gonna argue about including will be the 90's/2000's. Lofton, Edmunds, McGriff, and more are falling of the ballot and a lot of them have very good cases.

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7 hours ago, El Dragon said:

I think the new HOF era people are gonna argue about including will be the 90's/2000's. Lofton, Edmunds, McGriff, and more are falling of the ballot and a lot of them have very good cases.

I honestly don't see any argument for Lofton. Ditto McGriff. Edmonds, on the other hand, is a no-brainer. All-time elite defensive CF, multiple 40 HR seasons, career 132 OPS+. That's a Hall of Famer. 

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I wpulnd't put either in, but MCgriff is more impressive to me. just shy of 500 HR's, 1500 Rbi's isn't anything to sneeze at, nearly 600 more hits than Edmonds, 3rd all time in games played as a 1B. . . .Not quite there, but closer than Edmonds. If you don't have 2000 hits, don't bother to apply. . . .

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13 minutes ago, Tabe said:

I honestly don't see any argument for Lofton. Ditto McGriff. Edmonds, on the other hand, is a no-brainer. All-time elite defensive CF, multiple 40 HR seasons, career 132 OPS+. That's a Hall of Famer. 

One of the best defensive center fielders of all time (better then Edmonds by a great deal), 110 wRC+ while doing it, worth 62.4 fWAR over his career, ranking him just outside the top 15 center fielders of all time (Just got passed by Trout this year because Trout is insane).

Basically, Lofton is very very comparable to Tim Raines, except Raines was better offensively were as Lofton was better defensively. 

Also, people are fucking terrible at evaluating Center Fielders and have been for years. All of Jones, Edmunds, and Lofton should be borderline locks for beling elite defensive players mixed with good to great hitters for long careers, and Carlos Beltran should be in the same group soon.

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First that will be decided about the 2019 class is anyone getting in from the Vet Committee.

This year is the "Today's Game Era"

Quote

Six former big league players, three managers and one executive comprise the 10-name Today’s Game Era ballot to be reviewed and voted upon Dec. 9 at the Baseball Winter Meetings Las Vegas. The Today’s Game Era is one of four Eras Committees, which provide an avenue for Hall of Fame consideration to managers, umpires and executives, as well as players retired for more than 15 seasons.

Harold Baines, Albert Belle, Joe Carter, Will Clark, Orel Hershiser, Davey Johnson, Charlie Manuel, Lou Piniella, Lee Smith and George Steinbrenner are the candidates the Today’s Game Era Committee will consider for Hall of Fame election for the Class of 2019. Baines, Belle, Carter, Clark, Hershiser and Smith are included for their contributions as players. Johnson, Manuel and Piniella are included for their contributions as managers, and Steinbrenner is included for his work as owner of the New York Yankees. All candidates except for Steinbrenner are living.

 

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16 hours ago, RIPPA said:

First that will be decided about the 2019 class is anyone getting in from the Vet Committee.

This year is the "Today's Game Era"

 

Harold Baines  - One of my favorite players and by all accounts a good guy. However, a HOF'r he's not.

Albert Belle - Okay, no one is ever going to confuse Albert Belle with being a nice guy, but in an abbreviated career, the man averaged 40HR a season, if he wasn't such an obnoxious fuck he'd already be in.

Joe Carter -   A delight to watch (even if he did kill my Braves that one time), but  he falls short.

Will Clark - Clark has more of a case than you might think at first glance, but like Carter, he falls short.

Orel Hershiser - He's Milt Pappas with two outstanding seasons. No, just no.

Davey Johnson - He did give us one of my favorite "stupid things managers do" moments, but that's not enough.

Charlie Manuel - Well, certainly a better manager than he was a player, I just don't think there's enough there.

Lou Piniella - Okay, I'm not objective here. I have always been a mark for Sweet Lou going back to his playing days.  I think he belongs.

Lee Smith - I've been banging the drum for Lee Smith for what seems like decades and the farther we get from his playing career, the more anemic his stats look when compared to modern closers. I know the first thing certain yahoos in BBWA look at is the W/L column and say "He had a losing record, we can't have that!" Smith was a pioneer at a position that has evolved and changed more than other in my lifetime. Comparing guys like Sutter and Smith to modern closers is a mug's game at best. Lee Smith belongs in the HOF and always has.

George Steinbrenner - The main difference between George and Donald Trump is that he threw his own money around instead of other peoples'.  The bar for owners is pretty low, considering Charlie Cominsky is in, but why make it worse? No. 

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15 hours ago, Tabe said:

I honestly don't see any argument for Lofton. Ditto McGriff. Edmonds, on the other hand, is a no-brainer. All-time elite defensive CF, multiple 40 HR seasons, career 132 OPS+. That's a Hall of Famer. 

This actually surprises me as I know you saw a lot of Lofton's career with a knowledgeable eye. Elite defensive player, (better than Edmonds by a hair), a terror on the basepaths and always a formidable offensive threat. The biggest knock on Lofton is the number of teams he played for, which on one hand can be said to mean that his teams considered him expendable; yet the flipside is that he was great trade bait because everyone wanted him. 

McGriff is a tough case and indicative of what a tremendous difference a few years can make in the game. Compared to Pujols, Thomas and Bagwell he doesn't look that imposing, compared to his almost exact contemporaries Will Clark and Joe Carter he appears godlike. He's one of those guys that's right on the bubble, keeping him out isn't a crime, but inducting him wouldn't hurt either. When your closest comps are Willie McCovey and Willie Stargell there should at least be some discussion. 

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1 minute ago, OSJ said:

This actually surprises me as I know you saw a lot of Lofton's career with a knowledgeable eye. Elite defensive player, (better than Edmonds by a hair), a terror on the basepaths and always a formidable offensive threat. The biggest knock on Lofton is the number of teams he played for, which on one hand can be said to mean that his teams considered him expendable; yet the flipside is that he was great trade bait because everyone wanted him. 

 

 

As a Cleveland Indians fan during his best years, Lofton was my favorite player in one of the most stacked teams of the 90s.  Matter of fact, he's probably my favorite Indian ever.  He was not a huge power hitter, but he was a great leadoff hitter, an outstanding base stealer and an eraser in the outfield.  He had the highest Wins Above Replacement in the American League in 1994, better than Ken Griffey Jr, and that is a hell of an accomplishment in 1994.  He's a borderline hall of famer, but if I'm the one guarding the border, I'm letting him in.

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41 minutes ago, OSJ said:

keeping him out isn't a crime

Let the Crime Dog be the judge of that.  What's the issue with Andruw Jones?  Not much hype and I'm not sure why.  He's one of the best defensive center fielders of all time and he has a pretty good OPS,  nice power numbers. He's a better all around player than some people who are being hyped up.  

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8 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

Let the Crime Dog be the judge of that.  What's the issue with Andruw Jones?  Not much hype and I'm not sure why.  He's one of the best defensive center fielders of all time and he has a pretty good OPS,  nice power numbers. He's a better all around player than some people who are being hyped up.  

Jones is such an easy "in" to me I barely even bring it up. He's Ozzie Smith at Center Field with the glove with a better bat.

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2 minutes ago, El Dragon said:

Jones is such an easy "in" to me I barely even bring it up. He's Ozzie Smith at Center Field with the glove with a better bat.

Yeah but I don't think he will get in and that's what I'm not understanding about it. 

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10 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

Yeah but I don't think he will get in and that's what I'm not understanding about it. 

Because near as I can tell a bunch of sports writers decided the defensive specialist they care about is Omar Vizquel for some reason even though Viszquel was, at best, the 6th best player on the Indians in there prime years.

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28 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

Let the Crime Dog be the judge of that.  What's the issue with Andruw Jones?  Not much hype and I'm not sure why.  He's one of the best defensive center fielders of all time and he has a pretty good OPS,  nice power numbers. He's a better all around player than some people who are being hyped up.  

Well, I'm not a member of BBWA, nor do I play one on TV, but I think I may have the answer to the Andruw Jones question... (And in fact, this may get extended to Jim Edmonds as well.) Both men suffer from Loftonitis, a career-long incurable condition wherein a player does a whole lot of different things very well, but may have one or two stats that the Ungodly look at and say "No way! We can't have that!" In the case of Jones, hitting for a high average is not one of the things that he did well. It's the same thing that has likely kept Darrell Evans out of the HOF, a single statistic that is misinterpreted by the BBWA. 

Jones also suffers from comparison to Ken Griffey jr., though the fact remains that it was only Griffey's first decade that was godlike, his remaining career was spent as a very good but not great player. When you're coming up a little short against an all-time great, there's certainly no shame in that. 

Jones should go in eventually.

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Davey Johnson belongs in and fuck anyone who disagrees. And Gil Hodges not being in is a crime against humanity. I think he probably belongs as a player alone but his being the manager of arguably the most legendary and celebrated team in baseball history makes him a slam dunk in my eyes.

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15 minutes ago, sabremike said:

Davey Johnson belongs in and fuck anyone who disagrees. And Gil Hodges not being in is a crime against humanity. I think he probably belongs as a player alone but his being the manager of arguably the most legendary and celebrated team in baseball history makes him a slam dunk in my eyes.

He managed the '27 Yankees?

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1 hour ago, supremebve said:

 

As a Cleveland Indians fan during his best years, Lofton was my favorite player in one of the most stacked teams of the 90s.  Matter of fact, he's probably my favorite Indian ever.  He was not a huge power hitter, but he was a great leadoff hitter, an outstanding base stealer and an eraser in the outfield.  He had the highest Wins Above Replacement in the American League in 1994, better than Ken Griffey Jr, and that is a hell of an accomplishment in 1994.  He's a borderline hall of famer, but if I'm the one guarding the border, I'm letting him in.

That just shows what a joke WAR is.  Yeah, Lofton was worth more wins than the guy who had 40 homers in 2/3 of a season, and an OPS+ nearly 30 points higher, while playing the same position at nearly (if not exactly) the same level of competence.  Put another way: Is there a single GM that's ever lived who would trade Griffey's 1994 season for Lofton's?  Of course not.

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57 minutes ago, El Dragon said:

Jones is such an easy "in" to me I barely even bring it up. He's Ozzie Smith at Center Field with the glove with a better bat.

It's real simple - he hit .254 and was perceived as lazy.  And the last 6 years of his career were really, really bad.  

I'd probably put him in though.

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