AxB Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 7 hours ago, SorceressKnight said: Exactly the point here. Again, even if Becky later on earned the title by winning the title, it doesn't change the fact: Charlotte won the match, Charlotte won the title. By claiming Becky Lynch EARNED the title, when she did not win the match, it is that problem. "Becky worked so hard"...yeah. She's supposed to be an athlete. If we assume every wrestler's an athlete, we inherently have to assume EVERY wrestler on the roster, from Roman Reigns down to the Singh Brothers...or for the women, from Ronda Rousey down to Dana Brooke, has worked really hard to get to where they are today. They're athletes, of course they did. Hell, going that far, it is actually kind of arrogant to claim Becky Lynch working so hard matters so much more: Yeah, she did. So did Charlotte, so did Carmella, so did Asuka, so did Naomi, so did the IIconics, so did Mandy Rose, so did Sonya Deville, so did Zelina Vega. What makes Becky Lynch working so hard so much more special than all of them? Every athlete at a top level worked really hard to get there or they WOULDN'T BE THERE...and if one wrestler worked really hard, and they still lose, then either they didn't work as hard as they thought, this other wrestler worked harder, or this other wrestler's just plain BETTER than them- and any of those results say "you don't deserve to win." But hasn't the American media spent the better part of two decades telling everyone "Tom Brady is good because he plays with a chip on his shoulder, he was drafted in the seventh round and so takes it personally that literally every team he plays against passed on him at least six times"? I mean, by that logic, if he's passing to a guy being covered by an undrafted DB, it should be intercepted because the DB has so much more to prove than the QB or receiver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edwin Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 10 minutes ago, AxB said: Has anyone asked Ken how come he wasn't at the UFC's 25th Anniversary show? Because you would have expected him to have been there, and he wasn't. Royce Gracie wasn't there either. It was weird. Royce works for Bellator iirc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AxB Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Yeah, last year Bellator ran Tel Aviv* and they sent Royce and Fedor to have a photo op with Netanyahu. I thought it was a bit bad, to be sending respected Martial Artists to be posing with a warmongering despot... well, not so much Fedor because he's Putin's boy, but Royce anyway. But that's a can of worms we don't want to be opening. nb: It is possible for a person to criticise the policies of a government, without that person harbouring thoughts of genocidal racism towards said country's majority population. Which needs to be pointed out whenever anyone says anything about Israel. Even if they say nice thing about Israel, because then you're endorsing the persecution of innocent Palestinians. * They ran this year as well, a week or so ago. Even though plenty of the lads from the MMA forum watch basically every MMA show that happens, nobody watches Bellator Israel shows because they're usually shite. But I watched this year because there was a title fight, and Phil Davis being the better fighter and losing to the guy who fought best, again. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SorceressKnight Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 2 hours ago, AxB said: But hasn't the American media spent the better part of two decades telling everyone "Tom Brady is good because he plays with a chip on his shoulder, he was drafted in the seventh round and so takes it personally that literally every team he plays against passed on him at least six times"? I mean, by that logic, if he's passing to a guy being covered by an undrafted DB, it should be intercepted because the DB has so much more to prove than the QB or receiver. Again, I agree there, but it's still covered by the last lines there: If you work really hard and you still lose, then either you didn't work as hard as you thought you did, the other person worked harder than you did, or the other person's just plain BETTER than you. Even beyond it, it still ties to the similar claim. Even if sports entertainment is just seen as a sport, it's not a sport. But if it's entertainment, it's not entertainment- which makes it a TV show that's in a world of sports. ...which in the process ALSO makes whining a certain wrestler isn't the champion a problem- because if you look at those things, the equal ground claims "Pro wrestling is like a sports movie", and as such complaining a certain wrestler worked really hard and didn't win in the end is the equivalent to saying "Well, Rocky was ALMOST a legendary movie at the end, but Rocky Balboa didn't beat Apollo Creed in the final match. We had to wait to the sequel for Rocky to win the title. Clearly, the first Rocky was terrible." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BNosanchuk Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Is this the thread where we are talking about today's Rogan/ Jake podcast? Cause I'm only 40 mins in and loving it. Its with Tony Hinchcliffe which helps as he's a lifelong WWE fan. He's telling his version of the Savage and cobra angle. Actually here's the clip this board wants/ needs to hear. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 10 hours ago, Ultimo Necro said: As an aside on Vince and his crazy ways, I’ve always wondered how HHH got AJ Styles onto the main roster, while everyone else had to go to NXT, without Vince or Kevin Dunn or whoever noticing. I can only imagine Vince saw AJ had worked WCW and was like “WCW? well he must have worked with Hogan, he knows what he’s doing, let’s get him on TV”. You know what's even weirder? Karl Anderson skipped NXT. AJ at least was a legit main event guy in TNA and New Japan for a decade and generally recognized as arguably the best in ring performer on Earth. Gallows had already had a couple stints on the main roster and went through their old developmental. But Karl "New Japan midcarder" Anderson went straight to the main roster. Nakamura didn't, but Anderson did. Owens, Zayn, Ricochet, etc etc etc. But Machine Gun did. I like Anderson but it's weird. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurningBeard Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 I dare say Macho Man getting bit by the cobra is still the biggest WTF moment in wrestling. Imagine if it took place with todays audience... rather than abject horror on everyones faces it'd be a bunch of fat smarks chanting holy shit then you've still got it when Piper came to the rescue 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eivion Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 54 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said: You know what's even weirder? Karl Anderson skipped NXT. AJ at least was a legit main event guy in TNA and New Japan for a decade and generally recognized as arguably the best in ring performer on Earth. Gallows had already had a couple stints on the main roster and went through their old developmental. But Karl "New Japan midcarder" Anderson went straight to the main roster. Nakamura didn't, but Anderson did. Owens, Zayn, Ricochet, etc etc etc. But Machine Gun did. I like Anderson but it's weird. Maybe Bloom helped him skip NXT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister TV Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 22 hours ago, Victator said: I don't recall hearing of him ripping off anyone as a promoter. He ripped off Bruno which is why Bruno stopped making shots in Detroit, it's talked about on Cornette's podcast. Also, there's the stories of the box office being "robbed" when they had a good house at Cobo. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodear Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 7 hours ago, Brian Fowler said: You know what's even weirder? Karl Anderson skipped NXT. AJ at least was a legit main event guy in TNA and New Japan for a decade and generally recognized as arguably the best in ring performer on Earth. Gallows had already had a couple stints on the main roster and went through their old developmental. But Karl "New Japan midcarder" Anderson went straight to the main roster. Nakamura didn't, but Anderson did. Owens, Zayn, Ricochet, etc etc etc. But Machine Gun did. I like Anderson but it's weird. Anderson probably had a bunch of guys vouch for him that Vince already trusted and didn't have to adjust to living in the states like Nakamura. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSC Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 8 hours ago, Eivion said: Maybe Bloom helped him skip NXT. There's a really interesting quote in the Pillman book from HHH about how even the best guys from around the world need seasoning to work the WWE style and in context with how NXT is today gives a pretty good insight to his philosophy as to why most everyone ends up in NXT to start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimo Necro Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Crazy Vince reasoning "he's Arn Anderson's relative, of course he knows how to work WWE style, get him on TV goddamit!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SorceressKnight Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 I'd assume the simplest explanation for Anderson skipping NXT is true: WWE had no expectations of Anderson ever being anything more than a tag team guy in WWE, and Gallows was already ready- so throw Anderson on the main roster immediately. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyJ Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 My impression was at the time Nak, Styles, Anderson and Gallows signed, none of them were taking nxt style contracts. ($50-$60k) These were people they poached who had some bargaining power. WWE wanted to see a return on investment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Cincinnati Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIPPA Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 43 minutes ago, JohnnyJ said: My impression was at the time Nak, Styles, Anderson and Gallows signed, none of them were taking nxt style contracts. ($50-$60k) These were people they poached who had some bargaining power. WWE wanted to see a return on investment. Except Nakamura went to NXT.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIPPA Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 The WWE announced this is when you will see John Cena next Madison Square Garden, New York City -- December 26 Nassau Coliseum, Long Island, New York -- December 27 Royal Farms Arena, Baltimore, Maryland -- December 28 PPG Paints Arena, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania -- December 29 (SmackDown taping) Amalie Arena, Tampa, Florida -- December 30 Columbus Civic Center, Columbus, Georgia -- January 4 Donald L. Tucker Civic Center, Tallahassee, Florida -- January 5 Hertz Arena, Fort Myers, Florida -- January 6 Amway Center, Orlando, Florida -- January 7 (Raw) Charleston Civic Center, Charleston, West Virginia -- January 11 Knoxville Civic Coliseum, Knoxville, Tennessee -- January 12 Von Braun Civic Center, Huntsville, Alabama -- January 13 FedEx Forum, Memphis, Tennessee -- January 14 (Raw) Royal Rumble is Jan 27 so one would assume he would be on that show but who the fuck knows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIPPA Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 I just went back and looked at the WON where Styles debuted at the Rumble (Feb 1, 2016) Basically, Meltzer says that the WWE put him straight on the main roster because they needed to out bid New Japan, ROH and TNA Plus as mentioned already - it was also a part of the recruiting to get Anderson and Gallows too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FluffSnackwell Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 On 11/20/2018 at 2:55 PM, Victator said: In the context of the TV show WWE produces, it is a sport, as much as they dance around it. WWE is just shit at writing about it. You also are making a fallacy in comparing wrestling to soccer. The closest analog to wrestling would be MMA or Boxing and those do not have multiman matches. Which most fans and people in the business can't comprehend writing wrestling in a realistic way. Which would be in the case of Ellsworth taking the briefcase would mean one of two things. 1. The match is restarted right there and Ellsworth and Carmella are kicked out. 2. There is something in the rules that allows a surrogate to grab the briefcase. But really WWE is just shit creatively. Except I already stated in a previous post that one on one combat sports is the best comparison when a bogus analogy was made using playoff upsets in team sports. There's nothing similar to triple threats or ladder matches in one on one combat sports or team sports. Honestly I just wanted to point out that what should've been a milestone moment won't even be worth referencing going forward because the chinless idiot who interfered has been exposed as a creep and once Carmella's dance break loses its novelty, how much longer will she even be with the company? Really though who gives a shit why Becky attacked Charlotte after the triple threat match at Summerslam or if she was even justified? Stone Cold lost his first and only two high profile matches to Bret Hart and in real sports that always means a third pay-per-view match never even happens. That didn't matter though because Stone Cold was damn determined to drive Bret Hart crazy regardless until he finally beat him or even better Hart was driven from the company due to the nonstop barrage by Austin. That's not exactly how things played out but it was definitely headed in that direction. In both cases, the underdog is attacking a wrestler who represents the status quo which the fans were either getting restless with (less with Hart than the overall product) or downright pissed. Unfortunately in Charlotte's case, she is part of the status quo that either keeps the belt on her or puts it on some sorry ass excuse for a pet project until she can return from her hiatus and instantly get the belt back the minute she returns. The pet project also ruins the sports part of it by putting on the same unconvincing uncompelling matches every time while much better acts are passed over for no good reason at all. I also disagree with the concept of the belt as nothing but a prop when it is arbitrarily used to try to get over random underserving performers while better wrestlers who were built up for over a year get passed over. You pull that kind of crap and its a whole lot easier to understand how you end up with Becky having enough momentum where she catches fire and Charlotte gets turned on; no matter who the heel should be under normal circumstances or whether it works from the perspective of a story about sports or not. Undoubtedly a great deal of Becky's momentum is based on resentment over Asuka getting turned into a choke artist after Charlotte ended her streak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FluffSnackwell Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 On 11/20/2018 at 3:00 PM, West Newbury Bad Boy said: If we really want to talk about how WWE should be more like real sports, someone should close that weird loophole in the Money in the Bank contract. It's been 13 years already! In a roundabout way, them insisting on treating the Money In The Bank cash-in like a big deal instead of actual wrestlers has a whole lot to do with how you ended up with an underdog like Becky getting the crowd so fiercely behind her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyJ Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 On 11/20/2018 at 3:55 PM, Victator said: You also are making a fallacy in comparing wrestling to soccer. The closest analog to wrestling would be MMA or Boxing and those do not have multiman matches. There is a direct comparison to mma or boxing when it comes to promotion. Pitting the number one contender against the champion is a good way to make money. But if there's more money in promoting an untrained ex-wrestler and sending him out there to get his face pounded in, that's good too. The best matchup is the matchup that will make the most money. As I'm in my "get off my lawn" phase of wrestling fandom, the WWE suffers by being a combat sport where the participants fight each other constantly leading up to the major ppv. That's not even taking into consideration that it is common knowledge that the wrestlers are fighting each other all week on the house show circuit. You don't promote by giving away what you're trying to promote and doing everything in your power to make sure it doesn't seem special. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattdangerously Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 5 hours ago, RIPPA said: Except Nakamura went to NXT.... Right around the time they decided to make NXT a touring brand, though. Gotta have a draw for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 I always thought Gallows/Anderson was part of a package deal with AJ Styles. I don't know if I read that anywhere or what but I thought it was AJ doing a solid for his good brothers. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 3 hours ago, mattdangerously said: Right around the time they decided to make NXT a touring brand, though. Gotta have a draw for that. NXT started to tour outside of Florida in March of 2015, and that's the same year they moved the Takeover events from Full Sail for the first time. Nakamura didn't even enter the picture until a year later. They had draws before Nakamura showed up. NXT itself was a draw, everyone wanted to see the talent on that show. They had Balor, Samoa Joe, Sami Zayn... everyone wanted to see their women's division live, and the tag team roster at that time was pretty hot too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurningBeard Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 6 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said: I always thought Gallows/Anderson was part of a package deal with AJ Styles. I don't know if I read that anywhere or what but I thought it was AJ doing a solid for his good brothers. At first they wanted to bring them all in, then just AJ, so AJ and Gallows and Anderson started talking with TNA which triggered the WWE to give them all a deal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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