OCTOBER 2018 WRESTLING DISCUSSION

[FlaeBlazer]

1 hour ago, Edwin said:

Regardless of which is more popular, I'd take a Kobashi/Akiyama Dome main event over a 7 star Okada/Omega Meltzer GOAT classic.

I’ve noticed from some of your other posts that you really don’t like modern NJPW main event style. Are there any matches from modern NJPW that live up to the hype for you or you see as legitimate classics?

[Guest Edwin]

22 minutes ago, FlaeBlazer said:

I’ve noticed from some of your other posts that you really don’t like modern NJPW main event style. Are there any matches from modern NJPW that live up to the hype for you or you see as legitimate classics?

I'm a big fan of Ishii, Honma and Suzuki and was a big fan of Shibata and Nakamura.

I liked Ibushi/Ishii from this years G-1, but thought their match for the NEVER OW title from 2014 was much better.

Also loved Ishii/Honma for the NEVER OW title from 2015, AJ/Suzuki, Nakamura/Ishii and Shibata/Honma from the 2014 G-1, Ishii/Shibata and Nakamura/Ibushi from the 2013 G-1 and Tanahashi/Suzuki IWGP HW title match from 2012.

I've seen a bunch, but those are the matches that stand out to me.

I love watching Shibata. I always thought he was the best out of the new generation Three Muskateers with Nakamura behind him and then Tanahashi.

I'm not a fan of the current New Japan product and I always fall in the trap and opt to watch more of the product thinking my opinion will change, but it never does. I guess I always head into watching it with extremely high expectations as it's sold as the pinnacle of pro-wrestling when it never comes across that way to me.

[FlaeBlazer]

23 minutes ago, Edwin said:

I'm a big fan of Ishii, Honma and Suzuki and was a big fan of Shibata and Nakamura.

I liked Ibushi/Ishii from this years G-1, but thought their match for the NEVER OW title from 2014 was much better.

Also loved Ishii/Honma for the NEVER OW title from 2015, AJ/Suzuki, Nakamura/Ishii and Shibata/Honma from the 2014 G-1, Ishii/Shibata and Nakamura/Ibushi from the 2013 G-1 and Tanahashi/Suzuki IWGP HW title match from 2012.

I've seen a bunch, but those are the matches that stand out to me.

I love watching Shibata. I always thought he was the best out of the new generation Three Muskateers with Nakamura behind him and then Tanahashi.

I'm not a fan of the current New Japan product and I always fall in the trap and opt to watch more of the product thinking my opinion will change, but it never does. I guess I always head into watching it with extremely high expectations as it's sold as the pinnacle of pro-wrestling when it never comes across that way to me.

What are your issues with the current NJPW main event style? You mentioned that you would much rather watch Kobashi/Akiyama Dome main event than the Okada/Omega 7 stars “classic”. The thing is in my opinion and this is coming from somebody who’s favorite wrestler ever is Kobashi, I thought Okada/Omega IV was superior to Kobashi/Akiyama in psychology, selling, and storytelling. Kobashi/Akiyama was an awesome bombfest but I really think they overdid the nearfalls down the stretch and it was too headdroppy for my taste. I have my grievances with NJPW main event style but that Okada/Omega match was that style of wrestling done to perfection. At least in my opinion. 

[Curt McGirt]

I don't think any of them are as good as everyone says myself, mainly because I don't like Okada and I only like Omega sometimes. 

[Guest Edwin]

6 hours ago, FlaeBlazer said:

What are your issues with the current NJPW main event style? You mentioned that you would much rather watch Kobashi/Akiyama Dome main event than the Okada/Omega 7 stars “classic”. The thing is in my opinion and this is coming from somebody who’s favorite wrestler ever is Kobashi, I thought Okada/Omega IV was superior to Kobashi/Akiyama in psychology, selling, and storytelling. Kobashi/Akiyama was an awesome bombfest but I really think they overdid the nearfalls down the stretch and it was too headdroppy for my taste. I have my grievances with NJPW main event style but that Okada/Omega match was that style of wrestling done to perfection. At least in my opinion. 

I am not the most eloquent or elaborate poster on here, but I'll do my best to explain how I feel about the modern New Japan style.

This maybe an unpopular opinion -- but I feel current New Japan lacks identity. It feels very Americanized and the ROH influence is highly noticeable.

There's a lot of not so great/average US American indy foreigners who are blatant copies of guys they saw on VHS tapes they got through tape trading through the years and unfortunately the natives seem to be molding themselves more so after these guys instead of the originals. So the natives feel like copies of copies.

A lot of these guys are Jr. heavyweights for the most part and they are being portrayed as heavyweights. If they are going to be portrayed as heavyweights, then I expect them to wrestle like heavyweights and not like vintage 1990's Jr. heavyweights on fast forward.

I'm not someone who disliked the 90's Jr.'s, but the thing is these guys now are poor copies of those guys and just tend to go way overboard in their matches and just try to overdo what those guys did. In the 90's we got some real classics like Otani/Samurai and Liger/Sano, however most of the matches these guys put on now are just built on pointless boring matwork before they go into a 15 minute finishing stretch where they replicate every highspot they have seen Liger perform except with more cooperation and a more dangerous twist while expressing a lame shocked facial expression during the endless 2.99 kickouts.

Meltzer and his clones praising Okada and Omega as all-time greats and praising their series as the greatest matches of all-time sets expectations very high. However, if you're not a fan of that modern New Japan style, like myself, then you will be letdown when you watch them and not understand all the hype.

[RIPPA]

Lengths of the WWE Universal Championship Title Reigns (in Days)

1 - 188 - 28 - 504 - 64

We have joked that the Smackdown Women's title is the one ring, the Universal Title sure looks like a monkey's paw

[FlaeBlazer]

29 minutes ago, Edwin said:

I am not the most eloquent or elaborate poster on here, but I'll do my best to explain how I feel about the modern New Japan style.

This maybe an unpopular opinion -- but I feel current New Japan lacks identity. It feels very Americanized and the ROH influence is highly noticeable.

There's a lot of not so great/average US American indy foreigners who are blatant copies of guys they saw on VHS tapes they got through tape trading through the years and unfortunately the natives seem to be molding themselves more so after these guys instead of the originals. So the natives feel like copies of copies.

A lot of these guys are Jr. heavyweights for the most part and they are being portrayed as heavyweights. If they are going to be portrayed as heavyweights, then I expect them to wrestle like heavyweights and not like vintage 1990's Jr. heavyweights on fast forward.

I'm not someone who disliked the 90's Jr.'s, but the thing is these guys now are poor copies of those guys and just tend to go way overboard in their matches and just try to overdo what those guys did. In the 90's we got some real classics like Otani/Samurai and Liger/Sano, however most of the matches these guys put on now are just built on pointless boring matwork before they got into a 15 minute finishing stretch where they replicate every highspot they have seen Liger perform except with more cooperation and a more dangerous twist while expressing a lame shocked facial expression during the endless 2.99 kickouts.

Meltzer and his clones praising Okada and Omega as all-time greats and praising their series as the greatest matches of all-time sets expectations very high. However, if you're not a fan of that modern New Japan style, like myself, then you will be letdown when you watch them and not understand all the hype.

Obviously you aren’t a fan of Okada and he is probably the symbol of modern NJPW. Your feelings on him will likely depend on your opinion on the style. But you said you loved Shibata. What did you think of Okada/Shibata? That match is not a typical NJPW main event style match AT ALL. From what I read, I don’t really think any of your grievances apply to that match. Amazing storytelling. It’s a long match but everything matters. It doesn’t seem like they are killing time at any point. This is worked like a heavyweight match of old NJPW. No high spots, nothing like that. Just a fight, a titanic struggle. I don’t think that there was a single nearfall in the finishing stretch. None of those 2.99 kickouts that have disenchanted you. In most people’s minds, it seems to be seen as Shibata’s greatest match, and in my opinion, it’s Okada’s greatest performance ever. I noticed it wasn’t on your list with other Shibata matches so I’m wondering how you feel about it because it’s in my own personal top 10 greatest matches of all time.

Even vociferous Okada detractors seem to really love that match.

[The Green Meanie]

1 hour ago, RIPPA said:

Lengths of the WWE Universal Championship Title Reigns (in Days)

1 - 188 - 28 - 504 - 64

We have joked that the Smackdown Women's title is the one ring, the Universal Title sure looks like a monkey's paw

What's that make the Crusierweight title then?

[NintendoLogic]

I think Kenny Omega does more right than wrong from a purely in-ring standpoint, but he's threatening to give Edge a run for his money as the king of overwrought facial expressions. And that Rise of the Terminator shit needs to go away forever. He and Marty Scurll are probably the only two guys who I would enjoy more if they dropped the character work and concentrated on being wrestling machines.

[Brian Fowler]

It is interesting/sad that the Universal belt has been vacated due to real life injury/illness twice already in less than 2.5 years.

--------

Okada is interesting, because he doesn't really work a specific style so much as just adapts to every opponent. He'll go crazy epic with Omega, hold for hold with ZSJ, and he'll go deep storytelling with Tana. I swear I don't mean this as an insult, but he's basically a version of Randy Orton that deeply cares, works his ass off, and isn't stuck in WWE "always hit my spots" land. They have similar size, build, and athleticism at any rate.

[BurningBeard]

Never watched an Okada match in my life but that ^^^ is the sign of a great pro-wrestler from the old NWA mould of who you would want to be your ace

[Guest Edwin]

10 hours ago, FlaeBlazer said:

Obviously you aren’t a fan of Okada and he is probably the symbol of modern NJPW. Your feelings on him will likely depend on your opinion on the style. But you said you loved Shibata. What did you think of Okada/Shibata? That match is not a typical NJPW main event style match AT ALL. From what I read, I don’t really think any of your grievances apply to that match. Amazing storytelling. It’s a long match but everything matters. It doesn’t seem like they are killing time at any point. This is worked like a heavyweight match of old NJPW. No high spots, nothing like that. Just a fight, a titanic struggle. I don’t think that there was a single nearfall in the finishing stretch. None of those 2.99 kickouts that have disenchanted you. In most people’s minds, it seems to be seen as Shibata’s greatest match, and in my opinion, it’s Okada’s greatest performance ever. I noticed it wasn’t on your list with other Shibata matches so I’m wondering how you feel about it because it’s in my own personal top 10 greatest matches of all time.

Even vociferous Okada detractors seem to really love that match.

I haven't seen this match. I'm not on NJPW World anymore, but if you have a link, I'd give it a watch.

Another thing that bugs me about modern New Japan main events is the length of the matches. 95% of them go 30+ minutes.

I remember Fujita's run at the top where he was involved in some great matches against diverse opponents that barely went past the 10 minute mark.

[Beech27]

I imagine you know this already, but if not, it seems fair to warn that Shibata nearly kills himself in that match. It is brilliant, and avoids basically all of the go-go junior influence; but it's every bit as indulgent in both length and the extent to which it takes the style it adopts right up to its (il)logical end. (Whether that is the sign of great art or antithetical to the concept... well, ymmv.)

[Dolfan in NYC]

Cut to title card:

THE GANG GETS HEAVILY EDITED

[Curt McGirt]

7 hours ago, Brian Fowler said:

sn't stuck in WWE "always hit my spots" land

Really? Really? 

I haven't seen a single match of his without a Tombstone, Tombstone reversal, multiple dropkicks (and after his leg has inevitably been worked over), and multiple crappy Rainmakers. 

Of course I wouldn't have a problem if I actually liked any of those things, I guess.

[Niners Fan in CT]

1 hour ago, Dolfan in NYC said:

Cut to title card:

THE GANG GETS HEAVILY EDITED

It's okay.  It's a decent match but don't expect NXT levels. 

[FlaeBlazer]

6 hours ago, Edwin said:

I haven't seen this match. I'm not on NJPW World anymore, but if you have a link, I'd give it a watch.

Another thing that bugs me about modern New Japan main events is the length of the matches. 95% of them go 30+ minutes.

I remember Fujita's run at the top where he was involved in some great matches against diverse opponents that barely went past the 10 minute mark.

Here it is, it’s a very long match but I don’t think it drags and I think the length is appropriate for the story but YMMV. I’m very curious to see your thoughts on it when you’re done because it’s very different from the NJPW main event style that you’re not fond of.

[Craig H]

I can't watch that match anymore. I tried watching it again after the first time and wound up audibly yelling out "NO!" when he does the headbutt and again when he can't even walk to the back.

It's just way too heartbreaking and gruesome to watch.

[Zakk_Sabbath]

Just a heads up to anyone like me who needs to catch up, I read Lucha Underground isnt gonna be on Netflix anymore

[NintendoLogic]

Wait, dropkicks are MOVEZ now? Seriously?

[Jiji]

I don't get it either.

Okada doesn't work like a junior all that much. The reversal dances are generally pretty minimal unless he's in there with Tanahashi because that's something Tana loves and their feud is ten significant singles matches deep. Omega's reversals are particularly violent and quick. Check his G1 matches with Ishii and Naito for evidence.

To each their own. At least we can all gather around our love of W*ANG. Speaking of, Wing91.us conducted an interview with W*ING founder Mickey Ibaragi last week. In it, he says that in 2019 the site will start offering W*ING videos.

[FlaeBlazer]

3 minutes ago, Oyaji said:

I don't get it either.

Okada doesn't work like a junior all that much. The reversal dances are generally pretty minimal unless he's in there with Tanahashi because that's something Tana loves and their feud is ten significant singles matches deep. Omega's reversals are particularly violent and quick. Check his G1 matches with Ishii and Naito for evidence.

Who would you say are the worst offenders of reversal dances in wrestling?

[Jiji]

John Cena and Hiroshi Tanahashi probably.

[Guest Edwin]

1 hour ago, FlaeBlazer said:

Who would you say are the worst offenders of reversal dances in wrestling?

Will O'spreay?

[FlaeBlazer]

I’ll throw Seth Rollins’ name into the hat.