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OCTOBER 2018 WRESTLING DISCUSSION


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I've seen all of Portland that we have available between 79-81. Obviously Flair would come in later (the Brett Sawyer match is definitely an interesting part of the Flair canon) and it kills me we don't have footage with Andre and Buddy when Andre came in, but I don't remember Race coming back around. Did he after that?

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Snagged some old FMW events I hadn't seen before from BAHU. Am already loving the editing. They just replayed Monkey Magic Wakita deliver a top rope elbow drop on Masanobu Kurisu 3 times in a row.

ALL IN for Aoyagi kicking Onita in the teeth and Onita retaliating with reckless Thunder Fire Bombs.

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12 hours ago, Victator said:

Well lets look at this. Was WCW ever the number one promotion in Canada? The answer is no. Was it ever number one in Japan? The answer is no. Mexico? Once again no. Was it number one in the United States? For roughly two years. 

So they are not number 2. I loved WCW as a kid and I think they were the best company in America for half of its existence from an in ring stand point. But have to have a super American point of view to say they were number 2. Unless you add its existence as Jim Crockett Promotions and 2000 still lowers the average. Why would WCW be number 2 and not the Memphis Territory? Which lasted longer and made more profits, while producing better TV. That is just an example. I could mention one of the other American promotions that had long runs, made money and had better quality.

Am I the only one amused that this argument is A) WCW isn’t number two because they were never number one in other countries and was only number one in America for two years, and B) Memphis, a regional promotion, is a better number two than WCW.

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If you ignore longevity. Did WCW make more money in under 20 years than CMLL has in nearly 100?

And if you're going by TV ratings, nobody's ever going to get close to Rikidozan's numbers.

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I think if one were to do a point system based on different metrics including profits, longevity, merch sales, ratings and global scale, It would be tough to beat WCW.

And @OSJ was correct a few posts back, it's pretty common knowledge that  Turner allocated PPV money to Turner Home Entertainment, which skewed WCW's bottom line figures for many years.

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2 hours ago, Ryan said:

Sadly, it also didn't mesh with his neck, spine or most of his body.

There is that. Talk about pointlessly dangerous spots, the fact that there are certain people on national TV still doing that shit just boggles the mind. 

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Vic's argument has no basis in reality.  There's no metric that doesn't have WCW at a solid Global #2 during it's time.  They toured globally, on 3 continents.  Their workers were heavly featured in Japan, specifically NJPW and headlined Dome shows, (fun fact, NJPW workers only headlined 3 WCW shows).  They had international TV, their in-ring product was consistantly better than WWF's.  They had international workers coming from Japan, Mexico, and Europe to compete, and those stars were actually pushed (as opposed to relegated to a D show on Univision or racist angles)Yes, they had some weapon's grade horseshit angles and shows, but so did WWF.  

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4 hours ago, JonnyLaw said:

Am I the only one amused that this argument is A) WCW isn’t number two because they were never number one in other countries and was only number one in America for two years, and B) Memphis, a regional promotion, is a better number two than WCW.

That wasn't the argument. The argument is WCW can't be number 2 over New Japan or CMLL, if they were less successful than various regional US promotions. I'm sorry for not spelling that out. Its my fault for overestimating people here. 

 

1 hour ago, Raziel said:

There's no metric that doesn't have WCW at a solid Global #2 during it's time. 

Oh I can think of one. Its called getting people to pay money for your product.

 

1 hour ago, Raziel said:

They toured globally, on 3 continents.  Their workers were heavly featured in Japan, specifically NJPW and headlined Dome shows, (fun fact, NJPW workers only headlined 3 WCW shows).  They had international TV, their in-ring product was consistantly better than WWF's.  They had international workers coming from Japan, Mexico, and Europe to compete, and those stars were actually pushed

You can apply most of these to TNA. Are they number 3?

So the argument from others is essentially that because WCW tried and failed to be a global company, that makes them number 2. That having almost no success (while owned by Ted Turner) doesn't matter. That trying to be a global company is what killed WCW in the end doesn't matter. 

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9 minutes ago, Victator said:

Oh I can think of one. Its called getting people to pay money for your product.

 

You can apply most of these to TNA. Are they number 3?

So the argument from others is essentially that because WCW tried and failed to be a global company, that makes them number 2. That having almost no success (while owned by Ted Turner) doesn't matter. That trying to be a global company is what killed WCW in the end doesn't matter. 

People paid for the product, and there *were* a global company.  Getting asses in seats wasn't WCW's problem, and wasn't what killed the promotion.  It's that they spent more for talent than they brought in.  TNA was Global #2 at it's peak as well, and yeah, they paid more for talent than they brought in, and unlike WCW, they actually managed to mostly recover and had their asses pulled from the fire.And NJPW is # 2 Global right now, and also managed to avoid WCW and TNA's folly, although now their expansion issue is catering to a certain group of talent trying to use their contract status and open invite to take booking hostage.  It's not that hard to understand.  If we're talking all time, well that's fucking impossible because we don't know how much business WCW would've done with NJPW's current model, or even TNA's prime model, or WWE's current model.   Yeah, Memphis ran in the black, but who outside of Tennessee fucking watched them before the tapes became availalbe?  Portland, ran in the black, but damned if I could find them on TV in the North East.  Mid South?  Good fucking luck.    WCW, on a Superstation, 2 of them actually, plus multiple syndicated shows, and International TV.  So yeah, WCW was bigger.

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7 minutes ago, Raziel said:

People paid for the product,

For three years. Any other time after the Turner purchase, they were not making money. The best TNA ever did was break even. 

Its not surprising that fans would buy into global=better idea. A lot of people who worked for WCW absolutely rejected the idea of making money if it meant staying in the south. Which is why WCW died and no one has come close to replacing them. 

 

14 minutes ago, Raziel said:

Yeah, Memphis ran in the black, but who outside of Tennessee fucking watched them before the tapes became availalbe?  Portland, ran in the black, but damned if I could find them on TV in the North East.  Mid South?  Good fucking luck.    WCW, on a Superstation, 2 of them actually, plus multiple syndicated shows, and International TV.  So yeah, WCW was bigger.

But so what? They were not successful minus three years. 

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I'm really failing to grasp your agrument of "TV and Exposure and running shows world wide and co-promoting international PPV's doesn't matter, only their bank balance at the end of every year" as to what was the Second biggest promotion of all time.  Like, it doesn't compute.  You have to literally alter reality for that to make sense.

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28 minutes ago, Raziel said:

I'm really failing to grasp your agrument of "TV and Exposure and running shows world wide and co-promoting international PPV's doesn't matter, only their bank balance at the end of every year" as to what was the Second biggest promotion of all time.  Like, it doesn't compute.  You have to literally alter reality for that to make sense.

Not really. It absolutely should matter. Its just that actually making money while doing so should matter as well. WCW operating globally means little when NJPW was operating on a bigger level within their own country and making more money than them throughout the entire 90s. Like NJPW was/is a bigger deal in Japan than WCW ever was in America. That is where the comparison lies and why its kind of important considering America was WCW's main base and where they would have made the most money/impact.

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We're never going to reach an agreement when we're using different criteria.  One side is using the pure P&L, while the other is using reach, visibility, and accessabilty.  NJPW only *just* because commercially reachable internationally.  Before that, they weren't seen outside of Japan save for when WCW put them on their shows, and that first failed expansion that nearly buried JAPW.  

 

Also, I'd argue the validity of using "Was WCW as big in the US as NJPW was in Japan" . It's not an apples to apples comparison.  The market size and competition is different, and WCW and WWF had full exposure internationally, NJPW and AJPW didn't outside of people on Usenet tradign tapes that AJPW and NJPW saw ZERO dollars from.    NJPW is just running shows in the US, WCW had their name on Dome shows in Japan.  

 

WCW is the only promotion on the planet to take a swing at god and NOT miss.  How is that company NOT being 2nd all time behind WWE even an argument?  Like, it's the closest Vince ever went to getting put out of business, but we're going to, with a straight face, say CWF or Portland was the real number 2 because they ran in the black until death even though no one outside of their territory's watched them?

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Some random points:

 until Vince, the idea of expansion beyond your region was only done on a relatively small scale. Georgia expanding into the Midwest, Verne going into SF and Denver and a couple other places, JCP into Toronto, various TX promotions jockeying for cities, ...

Also, given the number of different owners, is current NJPW the same entity as Inoki's NJPW or just in name only?

Freely acknowledging my biases, I would say if you take in the whole history of the business, I would say CMLL is #2. 

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Kikutaro is living in Vegas. Why aren't of the bigger indys booking him? Has the  novelty of the gimmick warn off already in the US? Maybe time for him to drop it and return as Kikuzawa? He was a decent brawler before then.

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WCW, it didn't last long but dude that 96-98 time period they were bigger than the WWF they sold out stadiums not arenas but stadiums for Nitro on a weekly basis at one point the product was hot brother it really was. nWo vs Sting, The Horsemen, DDP, Goldberg, the cruisers plus all the international talent and random guys who worked for Vince in the '80s. The atmosphere was that of unpredictability you never knew what was gonna happen and you felt like you had to watch every week.

Also Hollywood Hogan the best incarnation of Hogan or at least my favorite.

 

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CMLL wins the case for longevity. With CMLL first place , WWWF/WWF/WWE second place.  Won't bother with NWA...

As for monetary success, the fed  that had more periods of making money, made the most money, more boom periods that made money etc. The most profits and revenue made over years and periods matter to this category. Is the winner for second place. 

 

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