Jump to content
DVDVR Message Board

OCTOBER 2018 WRESTLING DISCUSSION


Recommended Posts

Hayabusa, Frankie Kazarian and the Black Ranger from Power Rangers appeared in the indy movie Backyard Dogs:

This is from around that time those backyard wrestling DVDs were released and the Backyard Wrestling PS2 game was released. Terrible movie.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Success would have to be measured as a cross section of longevity and profits adjusted for inflation, right? I don't know enough about lucha to judge CMLL or AAA but I would think that would make New Japan the winner. WCW's popularity paled in comparison to how much money it was flushing away at times. I'm out of my depth on this one but in my mind that makes sense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

CMLL has been around for 85 years and owns the buildings where they run. 

You can argue about the quality of their product, but it would be hard to say they have not been successful, if only for the Lutteroth/Alonso family. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pat Tanaka is one of Gedo's heroes. They met in the UWA and Gedo tried booking him in New Japan, but Tanaka told Gedo he had a terminal illness. This bummed out Gedo and he and the New Japan crew put together some money and sent Tanaka a donation. Supposedly Tanaka lied to Gedo and wasn't really ill and he just took the money and Gedo never heard from him again. Crazy.

Inb4 Badd Company puns.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So I've been watching some of the early AJPW Triple Crown matches(from 1989 up to 91 so far), and it's odd how un-AJPW-ish they feel. Because you think of classic Triple Crown matches as the height of pure sport pro-wrestling, but here they are brawling through the crowd, using chairs, blading, doing post-match attacks. Now admittedly Stan Hansen is a part of most of these matches, but he's not always the one to instigate the 'fight without honour' style. And Misawa was swinging chairs around while wrestling Tsuruta too.

The other thing is, the Misawa vs Hansen from July '90, for the vacant belt after Terry Gordy was hospitalised, Misawa spends the whole match working over the left arm. Which is Hansen's lariat arm, with all of his other attacks coming from the right. And Hansen is selling the hell out of this armwork, screaming in pain and that. And then later in the match he hits the lariat no problem. Felt a bit inorganic, that. He could have got another move over as an alternative finisher, but because they weren't planning on phasing him down, they wanted to keep his killshot a killer. I don't think they were planning on phasing Jumbo down either, but he had that medical issue.

Another odd thing, Stan Hansen was born in 1949, and Tsuruta in 1951. So I'm watching matches where they're in their late thirties, or very early forties. And yet they look old to me. Even though I'm older now than they were then. They both looked older than, say, Dwayne Johnson (who is 46) does today. Is there something about growing up in the 50s and 60s that made people, like, age faster?

I also watched a (clipped) Tsuruta vs Tenryu from 83. Meng was one of the young boys at ringside. Scariest young boy ever. It's all on the youtube, by the way. Earthquake was a young boy in 89.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Edwin said:

Pat Tanaka is one of Gedo's heroes. They met in the UWA and Gedo tried booking him in New Japan, but Tanaka told Gedo he had a terminal illness. This bummed out Gedo and he and the New Japan crew put together some money and sent Tanaka a donation. Supposedly Tanaka lied to Gedo and wasn't really ill and he just took the money and Gedo never heard from him again. Crazy.

Inb4 I guess Tanaka is bad company, etc. jokes.

Carnies gonna carny

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎10‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 11:06 AM, Edwin said:

Wild stuff. In the post match interview, whoever is playing Super Leather called Tarzan Goto a banana.

That was Mike Kirschner the FMW Super Leather in that match.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/13/2018 at 6:07 PM, RolandTHTG said:

WCW still number 2. 

No-one else was ever the best promotion in the world even for a fleeting amount of time, nor have they ever gained the worldwide mainstream publicity that WCW had, even with technological advancements making it so much easier.

Well lets look at this. Was WCW ever the number one promotion in Canada? The answer is no. Was it ever number one in Japan? The answer is no. Mexico? Once again no. Was it number one in the United States? For roughly two years. 

So they are not number 2. I loved WCW as a kid and I think they were the best company in America for half of its existence from an in ring stand point. But have to have a super American point of view to say they were number 2. Unless you add its existence as Jim Crockett Promotions and 2000 still lowers the average. Why would WCW be number 2 and not the Memphis Territory? Which lasted longer and made more profits, while producing better TV. That is just an example. I could mention one of the other American promotions that had long runs, made money and had better quality.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Victator said:

Well lets look at this. Was WCW ever the number one promotion in Canada? The answer is no. Was it ever number one in Japan? The answer is no. Mexico? Once again no. Was it number one in the United States? For roughly two years. 

So they are not number 2. I loved WCW as a kid and I think they were the best company in America for half of its existence from an in ring stand point. But have to have a super American point of view to say they were number 2. Unless you add its existence as Jim Crockett Promotions and 2000 still lowers the average. Why would WCW be number 2 and not the Memphis Territory? Which lasted longer and made more profits, while producing better TV. That is just an example. I could mention one of the other American promotions that had long runs, made money and had better quality.

Well, Memphis sucked worse than WCW ever dreamed of.  JCP/WCW had consistent natiional TV which sort makes them the leader of the pack. Certainly, ECW at its best was better, Don Owen Promotions out in the NW lasted far, far longer. But they didn't have a SuperStation broadcasting them into millions of homes. And that, makes all the difference.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, OSJ said:

Well, Memphis sucked worse than WCW ever dreamed of. 

No not really. I have watched the Memphis available and when it was drawing money it was great. So no idea where you are getting this. Plus it actually made money with less resources. 

 

 

2 minutes ago, OSJ said:

JCP/WCW had consistent natiional TV which sort makes them the leader of the pack.

Unless they made money, it doesn't matter. If you add Jim Crockett Promotions to WCW, it boosts the average, since it made money going back decades. But it also sounds like the people listing WCW are not thinking of that, They are thinking of the company Ted Turner/Time Warner owned and ran into the ground. 

 

 

7 minutes ago, OSJ said:

Don Owen Promotions out in the NW lasted far, far longer. But they didn't have a SuperStation broadcasting them into millions of homes. And that, makes all the difference.

What difference is that? TNA was on national cable for six years, are they number 3? If you have national TV and still lose money, that is a strike against you. 

WCW was not even having cash flow problems like ECW had. They lost a shit load of money. Maybe if they had gotten that second chance in 01, its legacy could have been changed. But as it is, they were the number one promotion in America (nowhere else) for two years. But national TV somehow gives them a buff over regional promotions that drew money for decades, or international promotions that still exist and draw money. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Victator said:

No not really. I have watched the Memphis available and when it was drawing money it was great. So no idea where you are getting this. Plus it actually made money with less resources. 

 

 

Unless they made money, it doesn't matter. If you add Jim Crockett Promotions to WCW, it boosts the average, since it made money going back decades. But it also sounds like the people listing WCW are not thinking of that, They are thinking of the company Ted Turner/Time Warner owned and ran into the ground. 

 

 

What difference is that? TNA was on national cable for six years, are they number 3? If you have national TV and still lose money, that is a strike against you. 

WCW was not even having cash flow problems like ECW had. They lost a shit load of money. Maybe if they had gotten that second chance in 01, its legacy could have been changed. But as it is, they were the number one promotion in America (nowhere else) for two years. But national TV somehow gives them a buff over regional promotions that drew money for decades, or international promotions that still exist and draw money. 

As to where I'm "getting this" it would be called "taste".  I'm not quite sure what you are babbling about as anyone that knows anything about corporate finances knows how to hide profit and show losses. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh believe you me, when Mempho was bad it was really really really bad. During the times when the star power was not there, the show might be built around Bill Dundee or Snowman. In a comp tape world, you can be dazzled by it's edited brilliance and certainly Lance Russel could make chicken broth seem thrilling. When it was good it was great but oh boy, there were plenty of hours of stinkeroos.

I am of the firm mindset that Bischoff Era WCW never made money. Let's not forget the sweet contracts that Hogan (and company) had, and that monstrous percentage of merch he made AND -this always blows my mind: his salary was not even on WCW's books, it was paid from some far more profitable sector of Ted Turner's empire. Holy creative bookkeeping, Battman*

- RAF

*Tony Marino, not drunk Adam West vs. SuperKing

Link to comment
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, OSJ said:

As to where I'm "getting this" it would be called "taste". 

And what would make it bad. What would Memphis have done that would be as bad as NWO Nightcap or David Arquette being WCW champion. If they produced anything nearly that bad, it should be easy to sight. Those are not rare misses either. These were a near weekly occurrence in WCW from 1998 until the WWF bought the corpse. So where are the Memphis angles (not some weird guy appearing once) that were as bad as the things I mentioned.

 

 

34 minutes ago, thee Reverend Axl Future said:

Oh believe you me, when Mempho was bad it was really really really bad. During the times when the star power was not there, the show might be built around Bill Dundee or Snowman. In a comp tape world, you can be dazzled by it's edited brilliance and certainly Lance Russel could make chicken broth seem thrilling. When it was good it was great but oh boy, there were plenty of hours of stinkeroos.

That is something I was about to say. Memphis most definitely had a depth issue past the main events. But they were not producing the garbage WCW was in late 99/00. Those years really lower the average of WCW as a whole. I think WCW from 90 to 93 was underrated. With late 91/92 being good. 

 

 

36 minutes ago, thee Reverend Axl Future said:

I am of the firm mindset that Bischoff Era WCW never made money. Let's not forget the sweet contracts that Hogan (and company) had, and that monstrous percentage of merch he made AND -this always blows my mind: his salary was not even on WCW's books, it was paid from some far more profitable sector of Ted Turner's empire. Holy creative bookkeeping, Battman*

95 and 96 broke even while 97 and 98 made profits. The issue  with WCW was it would have to make huge profits every year to turn a profit. Which is mitigated to a degree by being owned by a media company.  But when wrestling cooled off and the ratings were down (while still being huge), there was the issue of people above out to get the company.  This is not getting into Vince Russo going out of his way to waste money and tweek the noses of his bosses. 

JJ Dillion said something like 80% of WCW's budget was paying talent. 

So there is not a good case for Turner owned WCW being above successful American territories. Much less New Japan or CMLL. 

 

1 hour ago, OSJ said:

I'm not quite sure what you are babbling about as anyone that knows anything about corporate finances knows how to hide profit and show losses. 

What would motivate Eric Bischoff to hide profits WCW had? If WCW was secretly profitable, why did Time Warner sell it at thirft store prices, why was Jamie Kellner allowed to cancel it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On a personal note, I am a big fan of Memphis rasslin. It sucked now and then, but nothing kills my heart like the WCW levels of suck. The was no excuse why that Bischoff/Russo/Herd/et al (and plenty of other folks let me down, many of the workers included) stuffingIOP was so terribly awful given the resources and talent at hand. Plenty of reasons, but no excuses. I would much rather watch Man Mountain Link as USWA Champ than David Arquette, dontcha know.

That said, I still do not believe that when WCW was "on top" it was making a profit. If we are going with feds that did not make money give me ECW all day long.

- RAF

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a way more interesting discussion than I thought it would be. Imo there are some essential questions I would ask. I believe to know the answers to most of those, but around here are a lot of knowledgeable people who might know better. 

Was their ever any other promotion expanding beyond regional AND national market besides WWE and WCW? Another promotion that workers considered an "end game" or a "big shot" ? Another promotion with constant main stream exposure for multiple years? The NWA doesn't count as a promotion, Mexican promotions don't seem to be big outside their market. Same for Japanese and European promotions. Yes, there are succesful shows outside respective domestic markets. But rarely full tours and all that. WCW might not have been No. 1 outside the States (I'd argue they were in Germany for a bit though), but they were known in different markets to a "mainstream" extent. Also, the view on Pro Wrestling tends to be somewhat US-centric. People who succeeded in WWE/F and WCW always got special treatment in promotions in Japan and Europe (I admit I don't know about Mexico). They are often attractions, posterboys and in featured matches. 

On the subject of loss of money: if the local dollar store turns a 6000 dollar profit every months, is it bigger than Wallmart if Wallmart takes a million dollar loss? I can see lots of criticism for WCW creatively and within their business model. I personally think very conservatively-german when it comes to economics: If you turn a solid profit, your business should be considered healthy and good. However, this line of thinking doesn't in any way touch the subject of size or exposure. Memphis was a good place to earn a living for a time, but it was a regional thing. Until we get another wrestling boom like in the mid to late nineties we will never get a new historic number two in my eyes. New Japan (I'm neither on their hype train nor a fan) started something I would consider a movement beyond the borders of their market, but until they have regular TV, release videogames, magazines, and people know their namens like they used to know Sting, DDP and Goldberg, I'd have a hard time considering them a historic no. 2 promotion. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, twiztor said:

Harley Race.

can somebody name five matches that really showcase what Race was all about? i'm only really familiar with his late career stuff (from Starrcade '83 forward). classic matches and promos are more than welcome.

Start with Harley vs. Jumbo. I'd post a link but still on phone banishment (seriously Verizon WTF?!).

Speaking of posting links, somebody should put up the ransom promo. ..............KABUKI!!!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/14/2018 at 1:20 AM, AxB said:

And Hansen is selling the hell out of this armwork, screaming in pain and that. And then later in the match he hits the lariat no problem.

Because he's a tough son of a bitch and he knew, despite the pain, that was the only way he was going to finish the match.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just to ring in one last time on this idea of a #2 promotion. If making money is the main consideration (and it maybe should be, though I'm sort of tied to the idea of quality as well, (I don't care how much money David McLane made from GLOW, I'm not going to watch such nonsense.) Don Owens ran the Pacific Northwest from Portland for years and made money. A lot of guys didn't want to work there because of low payouts, but a lot of guys did because of the quality of life in the region. I would have trouble call him a #2 promotion as no one outside of a four-state area saw the show, but there ya go, maybe the template for a successful territory. 

Word Class and AWA had brief flirtations with national TV, but both sucked mightily.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Memphis and Portland were both awesome for some of the same and some very different reasons. The idea of having to defend Memphis in 2018 on DVDVR is so outlandish that I'm not even sure about the worth of it.

As for Harley, topically, a good match to watch, for good and for ill, is the Rick Martel match from Portland. It's a great example of how a guy like Harley could establish a guy relatively new to the territory (with not so great English speaking skills) like Martel, by giving him way too much of the match for it to be considered a great match independently. Effective but frustrating. That's Harley for you.

Harley vs Funk is a legitimately great match, but more of a Funk one, though the third fall gives you a wonderful sense of how tough and legitimate Harley could come off as.


 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Matt D said:

Memphis and Portland were both awesome for some of the same and some very different reasons. The idea of having to defend Memphis in 2018 on DVDVR is so outlandish that I'm not even sure about the worth of it.

As for Harley, topically, a good match to watch, for good and for ill, is the Rick Martel match from Portland. It's a great example of how a guy like Harley could establish a guy relatively new to the territory (with not so great English speaking skills) like Martel, by giving him way too much of the match for it to be considered a great match independently. Effective but frustrating. That's Harley for you.

I'll just keep my feelings about Memphis to myself. Suffice it to say I've never been a big Lawler fan. 

Now for Harley, you bring up a very salient point about him, if there's any knock on Harley, it's that he was too giving to opponents that didn't merit such largess on his part. Yeah, going toe to toe with Jumbo (arguably the greatest wrestler who ever lived), yes, that makes all the sense in the world. Giving Martel so much offense in Portland when Harley was the attraction (traveling champ, remember those?) was more than just making the local guy look good, it really diminished Harley to the crowd. After all, pre-Haku, Harley looked like the one guy that you would want on your side in a bar-room brawl, he radiated toughness, yet, often when working someone like a young Martel, he gave too much away. Still, one of the very best ever, even if I thought that the diving headbutt didn't mesh with the persona.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...