*NEW* DC MOVIE THREAD

[Brian Fowler]

I've never felt Joker was an anti-hero in anything. He's a villain, straight up. I mean, yes, The Killing Joke or The Man Who Laughs set him up with a sympathetic backstory, but it still didn't excuse what he became (indeed, if The Killing Joke has any point, it's that it doesn't excuse what he became.)

[odessasteps]

I’d need to look it up, but I wonder if anyone has ever done an Earth-3 Joker story, where he would be a babyface to Owlman. 

[J.T.]

1 hour ago, Brian Fowler said:

I've never felt Joker was an anti-hero in anything. He's a villain, straight up. I mean, yes, The Killing Joke or The Man Who Laughs set him up with a sympathetic backstory, but it still didn't excuse what he became (indeed, if The Killing Joke has any point, it's that it doesn't excuse what he became.)

It is funny how many people might agree with you when it comes to the Joker and yet disagree when it came to characters like Andrew from Chronicle or the titular Carrie.

Odd how people feel that society in general should be spared the vengeance of nihilistic and homicidal sociopaths but somehow bullies are deserving of death sentences delivered by the hands of the tormented.

When the abused become abusers, doesn't that make the bullies as well?

Edited September 5, 2019 by J.T.

[odessasteps]

I’d say revenge/vengeance fiction is a large facet of American pop culture, at least as far back as the Old West, if not colonial times. 

[J.T.]

20 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

I’d say revenge/vengeance fiction is a large facet of American pop culture, at least as far back as the Old West, if not colonial times. 

Goes as far back as Greek tragedy and even further.

Loki's motive for engineering Ragnarok and the death of Baldur is his never ending mission to avenge Ymir and the "oppression" of the Giant race by the Aesir..

Edited September 5, 2019 by J.T.

[odessasteps]

Not my area of expertise, but i’d think the Old Testament qualifies too.  

[J.T.]

1 minute ago, odessasteps said:

Not my area of expertise, but i’d think the Old Testament qualifies too.  

Technically, only God is allowed to seek vengeance.  Humans are supposed to forgive.

Doesn't usually work that way, though.

[odessasteps]

To draw it back to DC, reminds me of that issue of the Spectre that we learn both Eclipso & the Spectre were once God’s instruments of vengeance (the Flood, The 10 plagues, ...). 

[The Natural]

Enjoy:

[Eivion]

16 hours ago, J.T. said:

Odd how people feel that society in general should be spared the vengeance of nihilistic and homicidal sociopaths but somehow bullies are deserving of death sentences delivered by the hands of the tormented.

When the abused become abusers, doesn't that make the bullies as well?

I wouldn't defend the abused becoming abusers, but its always a bit hard to feel sympathy for bullies in these types of stories because they kind of display sociopath-esque tendencies themselves. I mean much of the time their victims are nihilistic only because they have been kind of driven to that point of view by the people who get their jollies out of their suffering.

Edited September 5, 2019 by Eivion

[J.T.]

2 hours ago, Eivion said:

I wouldn't defend the abused becoming abusers, but its always a bit hard to feel sympathy for bullies in these types of stories because they kind of display sociopath-esque tendencies themselves.

True enough.  It's easy to pull for Andrew in the first act of Chronicle since his life is so miserable and the people that torment him relentlessly are so incredibly loathsome, especially his father.

[Brian Fowler]

Carrie is deeply sympathetic right up until you realize "wait, she's going to kill EVERYONE"

[J.T.]

28 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said:

Carrie is deeply sympathetic right up until you realize "wait, she's going to kill EVERYONE"

And she reacts that way in part due to the mental abuse she suffered at the hands of her mother.  

Philosophically, I don't have a problem with Carrie or Andrew getting a little get back on the people that persecuted them but when they decide to lash out at everyone just because they can?  That's when they cross over into monster territory.

[The Man Known as Dan]

24 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said:

Carrie is deeply sympathetic right up until you realize "wait, she's going to kill EVERYONE"

It surely is the darkest origin story for Jean Grey ever told.

 

21 hours ago, Brian Fowler said:

I've never felt Joker was an anti-hero in anything. He's a villain, straight up. I mean, yes, The Killing Joke or The Man Who Laughs set him up with a sympathetic backstory, but it still didn't excuse what he became (indeed, if The Killing Joke has any point, it's that it doesn't excuse what he became.)

And that’s fine! That’s the movie I’m hoping we get! I want to see a movie about how society can be so fucked up it pushes a mostly normal man to breaking in an incredibly extreme way. Using the Joker is just a good hook to give a movie pointing it out a large audience is fine by me. 

 

Sadly it seems like people are already so caught in the debates about this movie they aren’t even going to give it a real shot at being good.

[Guest The Magnificent 7]

34 minutes ago, J.T. said:

And she reacts that way in part due to the mental abuse she suffered at the hands of her mother.  

Philosophically, I don't have a problem with Carrie or Andrew getting a little get back on the people that persecuted them but when they decide to lash out at everyone just because they can?  That's when they cross over into monster territory.

“He decided it was human hatred and not divine vengeance that had plunged him into this abyss. He doomed these unknown men to every torment that his inflamed imagination could devise, while still considering that the most frightful were too mild and, above all, too brief for them: torture was followed by death, and death brought, if not repose, at least an insensibility that resembled it.”

The Count of Monte Cristo - Alexandre Dumas

I am reading the unabridged version right now and it’s one of the best books I’ve ever read. One of those classics that outdoes its reputation. Revenge is a timeless and universal subject.

 

[Eivion]

2 hours ago, Brian Fowler said:

Carrie is deeply sympathetic right up until you realize "wait, she's going to kill EVERYONE"

I oddly don't remember much of Chronicle, but with Carrie I believe that was a case where she lost complete control of herself. She needed to be put down like a wild animal unfortunately. What brought her to that state was depressing, but it didn't make her any less insane and dangerous. 

[odessasteps]

The analysis of this movie I just read also reminded me how much I hated Falling Down. 

Someone else compared it to NBK. 

[Brian Fowler]

45 minutes ago, Eivion said:

I oddly don't remember much of Chronicle, but with Carrie I believe that was a case where she lost complete control of herself. She needed to be put down like a wild animal unfortunately. What brought her to that state was depressing, but it didn't make her any less insane and dangerous. 

There's a moment after the blood where we see both the "reality" of the kids all standing there in stunned silence and the moment of what she sees, all of them laughing at her. 

Then the door locks.

[J.T.]

1 hour ago, odessasteps said:

Someone else compared it to NBK. 

Nah. Stone would be the first to tell you that NBK is in the realm of the theater of the absurd while Falling Down takes itself much too seriously.

2 hours ago, Eivion said:

I oddly don't remember much of Chronicle, but with Carrie I believe that was a case where she lost complete control of herself. 

And yet she doesn't lose total control of herself, right?  Carrie White knows exactly what the fuck she's doing when she decides to kill everyone at the prom.

She doesn't just hurl random objects around the room in a blind rage.   

She locks all of the doors and then fucking blasts people with water from a telekinetically controlled fire hose and then deliberately tries to kill everyone by either electrocuting them or trauma from the high pressure water.... 

The gym fire was purely incidental.... or was it..... the way she walks through the fire is almost as if she is savoring the aftermath of the carnage.

 

Edited September 6, 2019 by J.T.

[Eivion]

I was talking more about her ability to reason properly like distinguishing between reality and what she believes is happening.

[The Natural]

Birds of Prey teaser leaked:

 

[BrianS81177]

On 9/4/2019 at 4:40 PM, odessasteps said:

I’d need to look it up, but I wonder if anyone has ever done an Earth-3 Joker story, where he would be a babyface to Owlman. 

Sort of. In Crisis On 2 Earths, Joker is in the opening sequence with Lex Luthor (both are heroes) stealing something from the Crime Syndicate but that's all you see of him. 

[John from Cincinnati]

Joker won the Golden Lion. Making it the only movie the voters preferred over the one directed by Roman Polanski.

[The Natural]

Wow.

[TheVileOne]

On 9/4/2019 at 6:30 PM, J.T. said:

It is funny how many people might agree with you when it comes to the Joker and yet disagree when it came to characters like Andrew from Chronicle or the titular Carrie.

Odd how people feel that society in general should be spared the vengeance of nihilistic and homicidal sociopaths but somehow bullies are deserving of death sentences delivered by the hands of the tormented.

When the abused become abusers, doesn't that make the bullies as well?

Movies and fiction should be a place where artists feel free to explore these ideas since they are just that, fiction.

Is it wrong if Joker asks the question, are the teaming masses at fault when someone like Arthur becomes a sociopathic serial killer? Or is that too victim blaming?

I'm not excusing the actions of a killer who was abused or ostracized. But we're told we shouldn't bully others and should stop bullying. Isn't this an ultimate result of bullying? That someone gets abused by society so much that they lash out? As such, it's cautionary of why we shouldn't bully others. Bullying only begets more bullying, as violence only begets more violence.

I'm not saying these are correct, but once again, artists should be allowed to safely explore these ideas under the guise of fiction.

Edited September 8, 2019 by TheVileOne