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The Natural

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So yeah.  I finally saw Joker over the weekend.

It was fucking great and I also don't see what all of the fuss is about.  Joker's origin is indeed very tragic, but the monster that Arthur eventually becomes is not a sympathetic creature.

One thing bugged me:

Spoiler

Was it really necessary to smear Thomas Wayne and make a red herring out of the Joker possibly being the older half-brother of the fucking Batman? 

I love the Nolan Batman movies with all of my heart, but I hate how needlessly grimy that future Batman content has turned out because these Nolanite grognards now demand and expect anything associated with Batman to be super bleak.

It's always been important to my acceptance of Batman's origin that Thomas Wayne be a do right man whose memory was worthy of Batman's never ending vendetta against crime.

It's not entirely out of the realm of possibility that such an influential and powerful man would have such a dalliance like that but fuck all, guys.  If Thomas Wayne is a lying and cheating shit like everyone else, how do you hold onto that and use it as your motivation to bring justice to the people that justice forgot?

I personally would want to bury that memory, not keep it fresh in my heart.  The world would be better off with one less man like that.  The memory of Thomas Wayne is supposed to inspire hope and remind Batman that there are people in Gotham that are worth saving.

The only thing that helped me digest all of that was finding out that Arthur's relationship with Sophie was a hallucination.  Knowing that the Joker is an unreliable narrator gives me hope that we also saw the events concerning Thomas Wayne through Arthur's cloudy lens.

 

Edited by J.T.
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7 minutes ago, J.T. said:

So yeah.  I finally saw Joker over the weekend.

It was fucking great and I also don't see what all of the fuss is about.  Joker's origin is indeed very tragic, but the monster that Arthur eventually becomes is not a sympathetic creature.

One thing bugged me:

  Hide contents

Was it really necessary to smear Thomas Wayne and make a red herring out of the Joker possibly being the older half-brother of the fucking Batman? 

I love the Nolan Batman movies with all of my heart, but I hate how needlessly grimy that future Batman content has turned out because these Nolanite grognards now demand and expect anything associated with Batman to be super bleak.

It's always been important to my acceptance of Batman's origin that Thomas Wayne be a do right man whose memory was worthy of Batman's never ending vendetta against crime.

It's not entirely out of the realm of possibility that such an influential and powerful man would have such a dalliance like that but fuck all, guys.  If Thomas Wayne is a lying and cheating shit like everyone else, how do you hold onto that and use it as your motivation to bring justice to the people that justice forgot?

I personally would want to bury that memory, not keep it fresh in my heart.  The world would be better off with one less man like that.

The only thing that helped me digest all of that was finding out that Arthur's relationship with Sophie was a hallucination.  Knowing that the Joker is an unreliable narrator gives me hope that we also saw the events concerning Thomas Wayne through Arthur's cloudy lens.

 

My general answer to this is “the fuss is people who wanted to hate the movie for a moral high ground hated it, surprise” and that’s it.

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On 10/21/2019 at 1:13 AM, The Natural said:

This is the Catwoman catsuit I'd like to see for The Batman (2021) movie:

DC_CatwomanStyleGuide2.jpg

Darwyn Cooke's Catwoman design. A talent gone too soon.

I was always a fan of that character design.  

Even moreso when Adam Hughes in a fit of brilliance drew in Audrey Hepburn in the role of Selena Kyle.

audrey-hepburn-catwoman.jpeg

Edited by J.T.
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Yeah, I think your final point is sound.  So much of the movie has to be viewed through that lens.  Especially the sequence starting at the stairs at the end of the movie. 

But frankly, Thomas Wayne's story is generally told by someone who didn't know him (Bruce), or who has an active interest in keeping him sanctified (Alfred, Wayne Co., etc.), so I wasn't that put off by that.  Mainly because it's a generally unexplored story. 

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2 minutes ago, The Man Known as Dan said:

My general answer to this is “the fuss is people who wanted to hate the movie for a moral high ground hated it, surprise” and that’s it.

Even some of the supporters are apeshit crazy dour assholes.

Yes, society can be cruel.

No, no one deserves to be abused or bullied.

No, the story of the Joker is not a revenge tale.

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23 minutes ago, Dolfan in NYC said:

Yeah, I think your final point is sound.  So much of the movie has to be viewed through that lens.  Especially the sequence starting at the stairs at the end of the movie. 

But frankly, Thomas Wayne's story is generally told by someone who didn't know him (Bruce), or who has an active interest in keeping him sanctified (Alfred, Wayne Co., etc.), so I wasn't that put off by that.  Mainly because it's a generally unexplored story. 

I tried to keep my thoughts on the hush for the folks like me that waited until doomsday to go see it, but yeah.

I believe that Arthur's mental deterioration explains away how nearly everyone in the movie that he encounters is a horrible person.  After all, this is the guy who says himself that all he has are negative thoughts. 

All of the events of the movie are warped by Arthur's perception even though we as the audience are supposed to be all seeing third parties with unfiltered perspective.

It is frightening to slowly watch him degrade to the state of consciousness where he doesn't even recognize innocence anymore, much less basic humanity.

The only real pure souls he acknowledges in the haze of his insanity are the kid on the bus who he tries to get to laugh and Sophie, but after a while the madness takes hold and he just objectifies everyone.  Once you do that to people, it makes them easier to kill without regard.

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4 minutes ago, Dolfan in NYC said:

There's a third also...

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The little person clown he allows to live, and even helps leave.  

 

My mind is still unpacking, so I totally forgot about that.

I definitely need to go see it a second time for the sake of detail now that I am prepped for the nihilism.

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1 hour ago, J.T. said:

Even some of the supporters are apeshit crazy dour assholes.

Yes, society can be cruel.

No, no one deserves to be abused or bullied.

No, the story of the Joker is not a revenge tale.

And you aren’t wrong. Just frustrating when the place I go to to avoid hot takes is literally swimming with them.


And you basically nailed my thoughts regarding the unreliable narrator. Just about anything in the movie could be him just viewing the world in a more psychotic lens then reality. 
 

But regarding Thomas Wayne, I guess the fact that I liked the Telltale Batman game so much made me open to the idea that maybe part of what is wrong with Gotham is that the “face of the city who did wonderful things” thing about Thomas Wayne is just what people say in hindsight while there is a darker history in play. The original game in that series revolves heavily on Batman having to deal with the reality that his dad was not what he thought he was and dealing with the aftermath of one of his fathers mistakes. It was probably my favorite Batman stories of the last 20 years because it seemingly broke one of the classic comic rules that always tend to lead to the coolest comic stories. So I have nothing against the idea of Thomas Wayne being one of those “look at how much I’m helping society” billionaires while really helping his own interests as a top priority.

 

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39 minutes ago, The Man Known as Dan said:

But regarding Thomas Wayne, I guess the fact that I liked the Telltale Batman game so much made me open to the idea that maybe part of what is wrong with Gotham is that the “face of the city who did wonderful things” thing about Thomas Wayne is just what people say in hindsight while there is a darker history in play. The original game in that series revolves heavily on Batman having to deal with the reality that his dad was not what he thought he was and dealing with the aftermath of one of his fathers mistakes. It was probably my favorite Batman stories of the last 20 years because it seemingly broke one of the classic comic rules that always tend to lead to the coolest comic stories. So I have nothing against the idea of Thomas Wayne being one of those “look at how much I’m helping society” billionaires while really helping his own interests as a top priority.

I get it that some people prefer a more "realistic" spin on things. 

I just have problems with darkness being inserted into fucking everything related to Batman, from Bruce's relationship with his late father to the now apparent invalidation of Thomas Wayne (gasp) actually being a wonderfully naïve, selfless, and honorable man who really did want what was best for Gotham. 

And I put most of the blame for this on the Nolan Batman trilogy.  Yes, I do.

I buy into the Thomas Wayne = Good Man school of thought because if you do, it then becomes Batman's sacred duty to make sure that the future Thomas Wayne's of Gotham aren't taken away too soon and grow up to contribute to a better future for the city.

When Batman becomes a creature with purpose, he becomes much more than a vigilante.  He becomes the Dark Knight and he fights to honor the memory and legacy of Thomas Wayne..

Yeah, it is a bit altruistic but a Batman that is in it simply because he has rage issues and just wants to prove that he's smarter than the criminals he pits himself against is kinda sad.

My personal world view is not so jaded that I can't believe that there are more than one or two decent people out there in real life, so certainly there can be a few in the comics and one of them could've been the late Thomas Wayne..

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2 hours ago, The Man Known as Dan said:

My general answer to this is “the fuss is people who wanted to hate the movie for a moral high ground hated it, surprise” and that’s it.

As you said, a very general answer. I'll have you know I thought this sucked at the nascent idea level, long before high horses were being mounted.

I like the talk about Thomas Wayne not being what we thought he was. I've never thought about him hobnobbing in Davos with the rest of the ruling class, and now it's definitely something I've got stuck in my head.

I agree with @J.T. about the constant, needless darkness inserted into Batman. The best Batman since TDK was The Brave and the Bold. The movies need to catch up!

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I'm not a comics guy, so this is an honest question:  Has there ever been a Batman story where he actually succeeds in making Gotham a good place?  That's his whole purpose, but it seems like Gotham is always a shithole in every Batman story.

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5 minutes ago, Log said:

I'm not a comics guy, so this is an honest question:  Has there ever been a Batman story where he actually succeeds in making Gotham a good place?  That's his whole purpose, but it seems like Gotham is always a shithole in every Batman story.

It's a never ending struggle like Superman's quest for Truth, Justice, and the American way.

Gotham has never really had a positive portrayal in the comics, but do you really want to see a Gotham where the Batman is not there at all?

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23 minutes ago, Log said:

I'm not a comics guy, so this is an honest question:  Has there ever been a Batman story where he actually succeeds in making Gotham a good place?  That's his whole purpose, but it seems like Gotham is always a shithole in every Batman story.

Any Batman story before the mid 70s? 

(I'd like to blame Miller but it prob goes back to O'Neil/Adams and Englehart/Rogers.)

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6 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

Any Batman story before the mid 70s? 

(I'd like to blame Miller but it prob goes back to O'Neil/Adams and Englehart/Rogers.)

I blame Paul Dini.  His stories are so great that I always look forward to the next big jailbreak from Arkham.

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1 hour ago, Log said:

I'm not a comics guy, so this is an honest question:  Has there ever been a Batman story where he actually succeeds in making Gotham a good place?  That's his whole purpose, but it seems like Gotham is always a shithole in every Batman story.

 

The LEGO Batman Movie?

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3 hours ago, J.T. said:

I get it that some people prefer a more "realistic" spin on things. 

I just have problems with darkness being inserted into fucking everything related to Batman, from Bruce's relationship with his late father to the now apparent invalidation of Thomas Wayne (gasp) actually being a wonderfully naïve, selfless, and honorable man who really did want what was best for Gotham. 

And I put most of the blame for this on the Nolan Batman trilogy.  Yes, I do.

I buy into the Thomas Wayne = Good Man school of thought because if you do, it then becomes Batman's sacred duty to make sure that the future Thomas Wayne's of Gotham aren't taken away too soon and grow up to contribute to a better future for the city.

When Batman becomes a creature with purpose, he becomes much more than a vigilante.  He becomes the Dark Knight and he fights to honor the memory and legacy of Thomas Wayne..

Yeah, it is a bit altruistic but a Batman that is in it simply because he has rage issues and just wants to prove that he's smarter than the criminals he pits himself against is kinda sad.

My personal world view is not so jaded that I can't believe that there are more than one or two decent people out there in real life, so certainly there can be a few in the comics and one of them could've been the late Thomas Wayne..


I think my differential is I agree with your sentiment that Bruce should become Batman for the same reason, I just think having him find out later in life Thomas Wayne wasn’t the angel he was always described is an interesting story arc potentially for Batman, and the Telltale game did a good job presenting the story that could be. Led to a more interesting story then Hush did imo, for instance.

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