John from Cincinnati Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 (edited) Sure, art should be able to safely explore ideas. But is it so crazy to be rubbed wrong by dressing some of these ideas up as a comic book serial killer who's already way too idealized and fetishized? I'd already had enough a decade ago when some people inexplicably found great depth in Ledger's Joker. And the way people wash over the abuse in the Joker-Harley relationship is mental. So I can understand the concern that a certain breed of loser is going to see this movie and get all the wrong ideas. Even if the movie is measured and careful with the themes and subject matter, most people have zero fucking media literacy skills and will see what they want to see. On both sides of the discussion. So the response to this movie is going to be a total train wreck. On the other side of the coin, people always correctly roll their eyes when certain nut jobs try to blame mass violence on video games or rap or Marilyn Manson or whatever happens to be the pearl-clutching hot button du jour. How seriously should I take the people already lining up to suggest this movie could inspire future real world violence? I'm inclined to say not very. The weak, pathetic men everyone is worried about are already being radicalized and spurred towards action by shit way worse than this dumb movie. Beyond any of the stupid woke vs broke shit that people are preemptively bickering about on social media, because it's 2019 and that's what people do now, I'm sick of the nerd desire for villains with great depth and substance. Sure, it can give art more texture. But this trend of people finding more common cause with the villains than the heroes is tiresome. Leaning too heavily on "just" motivation for the actions of villains has way too many people bending over backwards to forgive those actions. The reality is that regardless of their motivations, the antagonists in these stories almost always take the weak, lazy way out of their perceived problem. They're monsters and cowards and I'm tired of people fetishizing them. I miss Caesar Romero and camp. But since that award suggests that our cultural and societal decline isn't slowing down any time soon, I say we embrace the fall. Cats for Best Picture! Jason Derulo for Best Supporting Actor! Viva la revolucion! Edited September 8, 2019 by West Newbury Bad Boy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 Is this the DC Movie Thread or Do Your Best Imitation of a Dennis Miller Monologue? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Cincinnati Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 Just now, Elsalvajeloco said: Is this the DC Movie Thread or Do Your Best Imitation of a Dennis Miller Monologue? At least he's an antagonist people actually dislike. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVileOne Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 (edited) On 9/8/2019 at 11:37 AM, West Newbury Bad Boy said: Sure, art should be able to safely explore ideas. But is it so crazy to be rubbed wrong by dressing some of these ideas up as a comic book serial killer who's already way too idealized and fetishized? I'd already had enough a decade ago when some people inexplicably found great depth in Ledger's Joker. And the way people wash over the abuse in the Joker-Harley relationship is mental. So I can understand the concern that a certain breed of loser is going to see this movie and get all the wrong ideas. Even if the movie is measured and careful with the themes and subject matter, most people have zero fucking media literacy skills and will see what they want to see. On both sides of the discussion. So the response to this movie is going to be a total train wreck. On the other side of the coin, people always correctly roll their eyes when certain nut jobs try to blame mass violence on video games or rap or Marilyn Manson or whatever happens to be the pearl-clutching hot button du jour. How seriously should I take the people already lining up to suggest this movie could inspire future real world violence? I'm inclined to say not very. The weak, pathetic men everyone is worried about are already being radicalized and spurred towards action by shit way worse than this dumb movie. Beyond any of the stupid woke vs broke shit that people are preemptively bickering about on social media, because it's 2019 and that's what people do now, I'm sick of the nerd desire for villains with great depth and substance. Sure, it can give art more texture. But this trend of people finding more common cause with the villains than the heroes is tiresome. Leaning too heavily on "just" motivation for the actions of villains has way too many people bending over backwards to forgive those actions. The reality is that regardless of their motivations, the antagonists in these stories almost always take the weak, lazy way out of their perceived problem. They're monsters and cowards and I'm tired of people fetishizing them. I miss Caesar Romero and camp. But since that award suggests that our cultural and societal decline isn't slowing down any time soon, I say we embrace the fall. Cats for Best Picture! Jason Derulo for Best Supporting Actor! Viva la revolucion! I mean if that's your opinion, no. But that's the thing about art. People will interpret it their own way. It's not the responsibility of a movie or TV show though to make sure people react responsibly. Movies, TV shows, and even video games are legally protected forms of art for a reason. Personally, I don't think villains have to be depicted any certain way. Critics of Goblin Slayer complained that the show is bad because the main enemies, the goblins, are simply pure evil beings who delight in nothing but cruelty and suffering and want to rape young women. Why do all the goblins have to be bad? It's racist and genocidal propaganda, right? I mean disregarding the fact that the goblins are basically a fictional race of supernatural monsters created by dark powers to be their minions of evil and spread cruelty, hate, and suffering, why can't there be a fictional race of creatures that are simply pure evil? Look at any fantasy story and you can find groups or races of purely malevolent beings that simply exist to spread malevolence and there's nothing redeeming about them. Even if you can't accept in-world reasoning for why goblins the way they are, fiction for decades has created evil creatures like this that are just pure evil and are monsters of evil. Wheel of Time has Myrddraal. Lord of the Rings has the Orcs. There are no "good orcs" in Lord of the Rings. All we know is that the dark powers corrupted and twisted elves and turned them into Orcs. Sure, what if the orcs were misunderstood? What if there were orcs capable of evolving and becoming good? If someone wants to write that story, I think that's fine. Tolkien didn't write that story though. It doesn't make Tolkien racist. It doesn't make him problematic. It doesn't make Kumo Kagyu racist that he did a fantasy story where there are simply dark beings who exist as dark powers and want to create hatred and suffering. But some creators want to do the opposite. Marvel Studios wants to make Thanos sympathetic. Thanos was less of a mad titan in the movies and more of a pragmatic philosopher. His plan for the universe is actually quite logical. Curb over-population by cutting it all in half. The movies made him less nihilistic, cruel, and sadistic, and less self-loathing. Thanos isn't wishing for failure and oblivion. He's not looking for a way out. He fully believes what he's doing is the right thing to do and is the just thing for everyone. In Infinity War, he could've done a lot worse. He doesn't actively murder and kill all the heroes. He spares a great deal of them and lets the gauntlet do its work. Now on a personal level, I'm *STILL* ambivalent about the changes that were made to Thanos. I miss the fact that he's obsessed with Lady Death as his mistress and constantly trying and failing to impress her. I miss that Thanos hates himself and deep down wants to fail. But this version of Thanos was changed to make him more palatable to the masses. Audiences appreciated movie Thanos more, so who am I to argue? In my opinion, the more traditional comic version of Thanos was no less complex than his movie counterpart, but his motivations and personality were vastly different. So regarding Joker, a lot of what goes on with social media is garbage to me. There isn't healthy debate and discussion anywhere. It's all just name-calling, buzzwords, handing out "receipts" and all this other dumb business. But none of that to me is a good reason why the movie shouldn't be made. It's not the job of a movie or TV show to police how people react to it. In my opinion, none of that is a valid reason for why the movie shouldn't exist, whether it's good or bad. Edited September 9, 2019 by TheVileOne 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 Like...how the fuck is Joker getting some award symbolic of the decline of society (you would also have to assume society was doing absolutely fine at some point in the first place)? That's not a leap in logic I understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Cincinnati Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 13 minutes ago, TheVileOne said: But some creators want to do the opposite. Marvel Studios wants to make Thanos sympathetic. Thanos was less of a mad titan in the movies and more of a pragmatic philosopher. His plan for the universe is actually quite logical. Curb over-population by cutting it all in half. The movies made him less nihilistic, cruel, and sadistic, and less self-loathing. Thanos isn't wishing for failure and oblivion. He's not looking for a way out. He fully believes what he's doing is the right thing to do and is the just thing for everyone. In Infinity War, he could've done a lot worse. He doesn't actively murder and kill all the heroes. He spares a great deal of them and lets the gauntlet do its work. What's logical or sympathetic about him? He identifies a problem worth addressing, fine. Then he gets the most powerful tool in the history of the universe and uses it in the laziest, least imaginative way possible? I don't know about the racist goblins, so I can't comment. Art without redeeming figures is fine. I like a lot of it. But comic nerd obsession with villains is weird and gross and I don't care for it. I want the guy in the skintight bat outfit to take a break from grooming teenagers to punch this clown in the face. 4 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said: Like...how the fuck is Joker getting some award symbolic of the decline of society (you would also have to assume society was doing absolutely fine at some point in the first place)? That's not a leap in logic I understand. Fair to say I embellished to make my point, which is that I don't think comic book jerkoff material that further fetishizes Joker taking top honours at festivals that allegedly celebrate capital I.A. "Important Art" is a high-water mark for culture. Which now that I repeat myself, I worry Dennis Miller would actually nod and agree with me. As for when society was doing fine, fuck if I know. Do I really need to assume things were ever "absolutely fine" to feel decline is possible? Apologies if my extreme outlook on this is a bit much. You should probably put me on ignore sometime before Venom 4 comes out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AxB Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 Society has always been doing fine. You just have to refuse to acknowledge the existence of most of it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 2 minutes ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said: Fair to say I embellished to make my point, which is that I don't think comic book jerkoff material that further fetishizes Joker taking top honours at festivals that allegedly celebrate capital I.A. "Important Art" is a high-water mark for culture. Which now that I repeat myself, I worry Dennis Miller would actually nod and agree with me. First off, these festivals are here to promote these major media conglomerates so they can market their films here. Art is at best secondary. If these festivals only had art house, foreign, and shoestring budget independent films, they would get ZERO media coverage. However, these festivals are sponsored by major corporations (i.e. Audi sponsoring the AFI Fest) so you're going to get a $100 million film with nearly 60 year old Brad Pitt playing an astronaut. Second, the Joker isn't fetishized more than anything else that is constantly being fetishized...which is basically everything. The Joker is as much a detriment to society as the Popeyes chicken sandwich and Game of Thrones cosplay pinterest pages. Quote As for when society was doing fine, fuck if I know. Do I really need to assume things were ever "absolutely fine" to feel decline is possible? Yes because otherwise it would make no fucking sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Cincinnati Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 2 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said: Yes because otherwise it would make no fucking sense. I believe it's possible to be on a continuous downward slope that started nowhere close to "absolutely fine." Considering the health risks posed by eating like shit, you're absolutely correct about the societal danger posed by the Popeye's sandwich. And I don't know what kind of person would donate to a cosplayer's patreon, but I'm pretty sure they're part of the problem too. Point taken about festivals though. You're spot on there. As for everything else, the more I flesh this out, the clearer it becomes that I'm turning into Abe Simpson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 1 minute ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said: I believe it's possible to be on a continuous downward slope that started nowhere close to "absolutely fine." If you have no idea where the point of origin is, it would be extremely hard to chart a downward slope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Cincinnati Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said: If you have no idea where the point of origin is, it would be extremely hard to chart a downward slope. No fuckin' shit. I object to your original insistence that the point of origin would need to be "doing absolutely fine" in order for society to experience decline. There could be plenty of other points of origin. Going from bad to worse is a concept most people probably understand. Is this the DC Movie thread or Nitpicking Nitwittery Omnibus? I know we all have an appetite for pedantic, circular nonsense, but fuck, let's not turn into the bodybuilding.com forums here. Edited September 8, 2019 by West Newbury Bad Boy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 Just now, West Newbury Bad Boy said: There could be plenty of other points of origins Except you haven't bothered to establish one yet because you yourself know it makes no sense. 2 minutes ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said: Is this the DC Movie thread or Nitpicking Nitwittery Omnibus? I know we all have an appetite for pedantic, circular nonsense, but fuck, let's not turn into the bodybuilding.com forums here. Well, you did go on a nonsensical rant. Also, didn't we have super, hot zaddy Ted Bundy that trended on Twitter for an entire day? I mean Jennifer Lopez has been trying to play Griselda Blanco for several years now while Salma Hayek played a version of her in Savages and Catherine Zeta Jones played her in a Lifetime movie. The latter two didn't even try even look like real life Griselda Blanco. We gonna write page long diatribes about that also? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Cincinnati Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 5 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said: Except you haven't bothered to establish one yet because you yourself know it makes no sense. I love when people go this route. "You didn't specifically address my concerns about your argument in the exact way I deem acceptable because you don't even BELIEVE what you're saying." As if you're qualified to speak to what I do or don't believe. I can't give you a specific point. Because it'd be open to interpretation and involve a fuckload of shit we're discourage from discussing here. You're of course welcome to come water board me and get some answers if you're not satisfied with that. Quote Also, didn't we have super, hot zaddy Ted Bundy that trended on Twitter for an entire day? I mean Jennifer Lopez has been trying to play Griselda Blanco for several years now while Salma Hayek played a version of her in Savages and Catherine Zeta Jones played her in a Lifetime movie. The latter two didn't even try even look like real life Griselda Blanco. We gonna write page long diatribes about that also? I don't know where the appropriate thread is for me to piss on Bundy shit. I don't care about any of the rest. Do I need to have a take on everything to be allowed to have a take on this movie? I also don't know how long a page is in your mind, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're on a small screen. Even then, I've seen enough of how you conduct yourself to know you're in no position to call anybody out for loving the sound of their own keyboard. Anyway, neither of us is talking about movies at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 Just now, West Newbury Bad Boy said: I can't give you a specific point. Then, don't fucking open your mouth then. Christ. Quote As if you're qualified to speak to what I do or don't believe. John Locke, you're the one who decided you were qualified to speak on the decline of society. Quote I don't know where the appropriate thread is for me to piss on Bundy shit. Seems like you don't know where a lot of things are. 5 minutes ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said: I also don't know how long a page is in your mind, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're on a small screen. Even then, I've seen enough of how you conduct yourself to know you're in no position to call anybody out for loving the sound of their own keyboard. I could tell you about the size of my screen but I don't know where it actually begins. It's more metaphorical than tangible I would say. It has many points probably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Cincinnati Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said: Then, don't fucking open your mouth then. Christ. I'm sorry for alluding to the decline of society in order to set up my unfunny Cats line. You have my sincere apologies. You're right about everything and I'm wrong. Now I'm all David Hume'd out, so I'll leave everyone here to hopefully get back to movies at some point. Enjoy what's left of your Sunday. Edited September 8, 2019 by West Newbury Bad Boy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolfan in NYC Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 Y'all are lucky I've been so busy. Let's all take a tip from Mr. Freeze. This is going to be a fun month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 9 minutes ago, Dolfan in NYC said: Y'all are lucky I've been so busy. Let's all take a tip from Mr. Freeze. This is going to be a fun month. Don't worry... @The Natural will get this back on track. That's his job. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 I'd be surprised if this isn't nominated for Best Picture. Phoenix is probably a lock to be nominated for Best Actor. I never doubted this project. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 (edited) I'd say the Picture nom looks like a lock. Actor he's got a real shot, but it's looking like a fucking loaded field on paper this year. Also, if he wins, that would, I believe, be only the second time two people won an Oscar for playing the same character, after Vito Corleone. Edited September 9, 2019 by Brian Fowler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 And Jack was snubbed! Not really but I love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEN! Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 Justice League was way better than I expected. I was not ready for how awful this version of The Flash was though. He even ran awkwardly. I liked it way more than the first Avengers film. Aquaman is the best superhero movie of the past decade. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Natural Posted September 10, 2019 Author Share Posted September 10, 2019 (edited) All four Joker posters in one picture. First and fourth are my favourites. Edited September 10, 2019 by The Natural 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Natural Posted September 10, 2019 Author Share Posted September 10, 2019 (edited) 8 hours ago, Brian Fowler said: I'd say the Picture nom looks like a lock. Actor he's got a real shot, but it's looking like a fucking loaded field on paper this year. Also, if he wins, that would, I believe, be only the second time two people won an Oscar for playing the same character, after Vito Corleone. A Best Picture nomination looks likely with the reviews for Joker (2019). Wouldn't say its a lock though with the way the Academy Awards have treated comic book films in the past, The Dark Knight (2008) most shamefully. Recent times has seen an improvement with Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse (2018) deservedly winning the Academy Award for Best Animated Feature and Logan (2017) Best Adapted Screenplay nomination. I think Joaquin Phoenix is the favourite to win the Academy Award for Best Actor at the fourth attempt. Phoenix should be on one, probably two. Edited September 10, 2019 by The Natural Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 TDK probably would've been nom'd under the current rules. Plus, TDK wasn't a festival darling like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 I don't know if Aquaman is the best but it's visually immersive.. just spectacular. James Wan is something else. The 4K Blu Ray was a must have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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