Random Boxing Thoughts/News v. 6

[Fallacy!]

16 hours ago, OSJ said:

FIFY 

Shouldn't have bothered. It was correct the way it was. I don't know what this "first five rounds" business is - GGG didn't start to really gain momentum until rounds 10 and 11.

You can't win a major title fight of this magnitude by simply backing up and peppering jabs all night. Golovkin came in with no discernible game plan, was on his heels nearly the entire time, and that's why the fight was scored the way it was. 

[Serious Darius Bagfelt]

4 hours ago, Fallacy! said:

Shouldn't have bothered. It was correct the way it was. I don't know what this "first five rounds" business is - GGG didn't start to really gain momentum until rounds 10 and 11.

You can't win a major title fight of this magnitude by simply backing up and peppering jabs all night. Golovkin came in with no discernible game plan, was on his heels nearly the entire time, and that's why the fight was scored the way it was. 

I watched the British feed and that's exactly what they said.  This fight had the feel of a draw or a one point fight like it turned out to be.   The British panel was split on it for the most part.  David Haye had Canelo winning comfortably. First fight was a dog of a call. This one not so much.  The two Canelo fights and the Jacobs fight though really punctured the GGG the monster myth.  Middleweight has been littered with flotsam for awhile.  Looking at the WBA top 15 it still is.  Canelo should be able to settle in for awhile

[Elsalvajeloco]

9 hours ago, Fallacy! said:

You can't win a major title fight of this magnitude by simply backing up and peppering all night.

If this was the case Floyd Mayweather would have at least six losses on his resume (the most recent ones would be Maidana I and Pacquiao and before that Cotto). But he don't.

Under Emanuel Steward, Wladimir Klitschko won countless rounds with a jab and nothing else of consequence. He was given those rounds when the total punch count was like 7 to 3 landed or 9 to 5.

Lets not be silly. Jabs count whether you're at the million buy threshold or not.

[BurningBeard]

It's not unreasonable for people to be suspicious of a system that only seems to break in one direction but it's unfortunate to see another entertaining, worthwhile fight overshadowed by boxing’s politics and “business and usual” stuff. 

Canelo’s body punching stood out and his enticing movement to draw leads was sublime while GGG’s weightless right hand leads and upper body movement was outstanding, so I reiterate that I really don't see how anyone can be upset at the call when it could have gone either way. It was a close, competitive fight, which is great for the sport.

[Elsalvajeloco]

Not saying that Canelo hasn't improved but the Lara fight indicates that hitting somebody like Billy Joe Saunders wouldn't be that easy. There is a reason why Golden Boy picked Lemieux for December and not BJS.

That's why I feel the GGG rematch for Canelo wasn't about GGG not having a discernable gameplan or whether a jab matters or not. Canelo and the Reynoso family knew that if Canelo could stay in the phone booth for X number of rounds that (one) Golovkin would be available for that because it would be Canelo walking into the proverbial lion's den and (two) the Golovkin camp wouldn't actually expect that type of aggression. Golovkin did make that adjustment by trying to javelin his fist through Canelo's face, but some guys you're not going to be able to knock out. Canelo might not have proven middleweight power, but that beard is middleweight tough. He could take the punishment Golovkin was able to dish out that very few people can stand up to. That's the difference. Wladimir Klitschko was old in the last few fights, but what made the difference for Joshua to beat him is AJ was young enough and durable enough to come back from the onslaught that put away everyone else in Klitschko's reign of terror. I think Fury would have got balled up if he had to take that same punishment from Wladimir when they fought.

If I was a trainer gameplanning against a legit puncher, the last card I would play is durability. However, if that's the ONLY card I have to play, what else can I do? The Canelo camp called the bluff, put that card on the table, and came up smelling like a bed of roses. Good for them. I applaud them for that because we got a great, close fight as mentioned above instead of a lackadaisical chess match. It's nothing I would call a robbery. If the Golovkin camp isn't protesting it, I won't make much of a fuss either. With that said, the Canelo vs. GGG third fight scenario is trending the direction of the same narrative that resulted in Pacquiao vs. Marquez IV. At that point Golden Boy is tempting fate. One bad outing from Canelo and that's night, night for the money train.

[AxB]

Enzo Calzaghe passed away yesterday. Joe Calzaghe's dad and trainer. He was Sixty-Nine years old. RIP.

[The Natural]

5 hours ago, AxB said:

Enzo Calzaghe passed away yesterday. Joe Calzaghe's dad and trainer. He was Sixty-Nine years old. RIP.

Indeed, sad news. Enzo was a character leading his son, Joe to an undefeated 46 fight record.

[Fallacy!]

On 9/18/2018 at 12:16 AM, Elsalvajeloco said:

If this was the case Floyd Mayweather would have at least six losses on his resume (the most recent ones would be Maidana I and Pacquiao and before that Cotto). But he don't.

Under Emanuel Steward, Wladimir Klitschko won countless rounds with a jab and nothing else of consequence. He was given those rounds when the total punch count was like 7 to 3 landed or 9 to 5.

 Lets not be silly. Jabs count whether you're at the million buy threshold or not.

 

There's no comparison to be made between a Mayweather fight and what Golovkin did last weekend. Mayweather's style is counter punching, staying back and avoiding contact and striking when his opponent makes a mistake. He doesn't stand there and take a beating like Golovkin did.  

Maidana only made the first fight look close because of the jab, because he threw off Mayweather's counter punching by continually landing the jab, but that still wasn't enough because Mayweather landed the more efficient and effective shots throughout the course of the fight.

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 hour ago, Fallacy! said:

There's no comparison to be made between a Mayweather fight and what Golovkin did last weekend. Mayweather's style is counter punching, staying back and avoiding contact and striking when his opponent makes a mistake. He doesn't stand there and take a beating like Golovkin did. 

So engaging in a fight is taking a beating? So Canelo was going to let Golovkin do what Floyd did to him some years back? The only rounds Canelo landed more power punches where the differential was > 5 was rounds 6, 7, and 12. The other rounds Canelo outlanded GGG in power punches were by 2, 1, 2. 2, 2. 3. and 2. Unless the judges were keeping running tallies in their head just starting in 2018, that's splitting hairs at best in several rounds.  This is not young Manny Pacquiao outlanding people by twenty or thirty punches  in a round. Pacquiao-Ledwaba was a beating. Canelo-GGG I & II was two close fights where both guys took damage.

Quote

Maidana only made the first fight look close because of the jab, because he threw off Mayweather's counter punching by continually landing the jab, but that still wasn't enough because Mayweather landed the more efficient and effective shots throughout the course of the fight.

So judges can make certain distinctions in some fights, but all that jabbing shit don't count in others? Right. Basically, boxing judging in a vacuum.

Also: If Golovkin was taking a legit beating, he wouldn't be within two points of the two cards he didn't get. Hell, it wouldn't be a split decision. Canelo would be up at least five or six points all three cards. The event happened in Vegas, not Almaty. For a Golden Boy promoted event, they are not about to give Golovkin rounds he didn't win. So if the two other judges gave him five rounds, that means he really won at least five rounds. Now what five you give him is up to you. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

Looks like Wilder vs. Fury will be going down 12/1 at the Staples Center in LA.

[Elsalvajeloco]

The potential undercard for Wilder vs. Fury, which will be on Showtime PPV, will have two title fights: Leo Santa Cruz and Gary Russell Jr. in a unification bout and Gervonta Davis vs. Abner Mares.

Lomachenko vs. Pedraza is moving to December 8 at MSG and will air on ESPN after the Heisman Trophy presentation.

[Fallacy!]

On 9/19/2018 at 1:11 PM, Elsalvajeloco said:

So engaging in a fight is taking a beating? So Canelo was going to let Golovkin do what Floyd did to him some years back? The only rounds Canelo landed more power punches where the differential was > 5 was rounds 6, 7, and 12. The other rounds Canelo outlanded GGG in power punches were by 2, 1, 2. 2, 2. 3. and 2. Unless the judges were keeping running tallies in their head just starting in 2018, that's splitting hairs at best in several rounds.  This is not young Manny Pacquiao outlanding people by twenty or thirty punches  in a round. Pacquiao-Ledwaba was a beating. Canelo-GGG I & II was two close fights where both guys took damage.

So judges can make certain distinctions in some fights, but all that jabbing shit don't count in others? Right. Basically, boxing judging in a vacuum.

Also: If Golovkin was taking a legit beating, he wouldn't be within two points of the two cards he didn't get. Hell, it wouldn't be a split decision. Canelo would be up at least five or six points all three cards. The event happened in Vegas, not Almaty. For a Golden Boy promoted event, they are not about to give Golovkin rounds he didn't win. So if the two other judges gave him five rounds, that means he really won at least five rounds. Now what five you give him is up to you. 

 

Engaging in a fight isn't taking a beating - taking a beating is taking a beating. Now, both guys can take damage, yes, these aren't mutually exclusive things -- Golovkin handed out some pretty good shots of his own, but he got A LOT, and hard, and in a way that made it look like he was constantly on the defensive and letting the other guy dictate the pace.

It was what you said it was - a close fight where both guys took damage. Far from a "robbery" like some are crying. Those people have never seen a real robbery in boxing. In a fight like GGG-Canelo II that is so evenly fought, it's the little things that make the difference, and the perception that Canelo controlled the fight went a long way toward him winning, which is the same reason many felt GGG won the first fight.

[Elsalvajeloco]

4 hours ago, Fallacy! said:

 

Engaging in a fight isn't taking a beating - taking a beating is taking a beating. Now, both guys can take damage, yes, these aren't mutually exclusive things -- Golovkin handed out some pretty good shots of his own, but he got A LOT, and hard, and in a way that made it look like he was constantly on the defensive and letting the other guy dictate the pace.

It was what you said it was - a close fight where both guys took damage. Far from a "robbery" like some are crying. Those people have never seen a real robbery in boxing. In a fight like GGG-Canelo II that is so evenly fought, it's the little things that make the difference, and the perception that Canelo controlled the fight went a long way toward him winning, which is the same reason many felt GGG won the first fight.

I actually agree with that and that is the really the crux of my point. It is about the perception of a fighter doing more than what he is doing. Hence, why it is important for the judges not to score based purely off perception. The reason behind the sentiment that the only way Golovkin could win the rematch is by knockout was that any fight that doesn't seem like your average GGG demolition job is going to be held against him. This goes if it's one or two rounds or the entirety of the bout. You can't really gameplan if the fix is already in.

I think that's why Abel Sanchez sounded dejected in the middle of the fight when he told Gennady he was losing. He knew if Canelo's back didn't hit the mat and more importantly stay there that the party was over. I don't think any amount of passion displayed by Sanchez in between rounds was going to summon a fighter who was going to dispatch Canelo inside the distance.

The only aspect I see as a positive is that in the outcome, we didn't get some atrocious scorecards. We could have saw some real chicanery.

 

[Elsalvajeloco]

Through five rounds, Alexander Povetkin is thoroughly outboxing Joshua. We'll see if that holds up.

[Elsalvajeloco]

AJ comes back and stops Povetkin with a right hand, left hook, and then another right hand and left hook in the 7th. Joshua stayed composed and Povetkin got tired and started overcommitting. 

Very shaky first 4 1/2 rounds for AJ and got stunned a couple times, but he didn't seem all that discouraged. He got aggressive and there was nothing Povetkin could do.

[BurningBeard]

Povotkin seemed to punch himself out, hell of a rally from Joshua to finish it but fuck knows what he was doing up to that point.

Every time I watch Joshua I get the sense he thinks he’s better than he actually is if that makes sense? But then having Whyte, Klitschko, Takam, Parker and Povetkin on your record no matter the state of the division and this early in your career is impressive so what do I know

[Ultimo Necro]

I agree, he comes across as a guy who thinks he’s on a different level to the one he’s one.

However, AJ has been caught and down numerous times in his career, Whyte and Klitschko spring to mind. He always manages to get through it though. His conditioning and power is crazy.

 

[Liam]

I had Joshua up 4-2, which seemed to be the almost consensus opinion of the scorecards. He wasn't doing much until the KO, but after a poor first two rounds, he was doing JUST enough to win rounds from thereon in.

With boxing often a 'to be the man, beat the man' sport, close rounds were always going to end up going Joshua's way, which also added to my feeling of Joshua being ahead whilst not looking particularly impressive in the process.

He finished him well though.

[Hail Sabin]

Wilder will beat Joshua if Joshua ever stops running from him. 

[BurningBeard]

I’m gonna continue to call bullshit on that. I’m not AJ’s biggest fan but he's taking them on at least whereas it took Wilder 39 fights to fight Ortiz and he’s shown me nothing much except he can bang.

His fight with Fury is going to be interesting as i reckon it’ll boil down to who has the stamina 

[Elsalvajeloco]

4 hours ago, Liam said:

I had Joshua up 4-2, which seemed to be the almost consensus opinion of the scorecards. He wasn't doing much until the KO, but after a poor first two rounds, he was doing JUST enough to win rounds from thereon in.

With boxing often a 'to be the man, beat the man' sport, close rounds were always going to end up going Joshua's way, which also added to my feeling of Joshua being ahead whilst not looking particularly impressive in the process.

He finished him well though.

I don't know if almost consensus holds up because I saw 4-2 the other way from several people. As the fight was going on, I did check to see to make sure I wasn't hallucinating. Now, I did start differing when Joshua came on. So I would be fine with it being even going to into the 7th. That brings me to the next point...

1 hour ago, CreativeControl said:

I’m gonna continue to call bullshit on that. I’m not AJ’s biggest fan but he's taking them on at least whereas it took Wilder 39 fights to fight Ortiz and he’s shown me nothing much except he can bang.

His fight with Fury is going to be interesting as i reckon it’ll boil down to who has the stamina 

I wouldn't necessarily say bullshit on that, but I hazard a guess to say Wilder ain't winning a decision in the UK. Even if Wilder managed to do something when AJ isn't, I doubt Wilder gets the same treatment as a Maurice Hooker did against Terry Flanagan. So by default, Joshua has to be the prohibitive favorite especially if it's a stadium show in Wales or England. I think Joshua is going to do better and cleaner work early on because Wilder doesn't really fight the first three rounds either. However, I also think AJ is going to respect Wilder's power early on. So my gut says that a potential Joshua vs. Wilder fight wouldn't really start until round 4.

As for Wilder vs. Fury, if Fury looks like he did in his comeback fights, Wilder is going to torch him in the middle rounds. I don't know about Fury being a large, white, and awkward orthodox Winky Wright and that really working against a legit heavyweight fighter. He would need Wilder to be super overconfident and just not fight at all.

 

[Liam]

7 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I don't know if almost consensus holds up because I saw 4-2 the other way from several people. As the fight was going on, I did check to see to make sure I wasn't hallucinating. Now, I did start differing when Joshua came on. So I would be fine with it being even going to into the 7th. That brings me to the next point...

I was talking about the official scorecards. There was 4-2 twice and 5-1.

EDIT: Ignore me. I misread your response.

[Elsalvajeloco]

6 minutes ago, Liam said:

I was talking about the official scorecards. There was 4-2 twice and 5-1.

EDIT: Ignore me. I misread your response.

Yeah, I saw the official scorecards right before I made the original reply. That basically reaffirmed by feeling about Wilder winning a decision on the other side of the pond.

[The Natural]

1 hour ago, CreativeControl said:

I’m gonna continue to call bullshit on that. I’m not AJ’s biggest fan but he's taking them on at least whereas it took Wilder 39 fights to fight Ortiz and he’s shown me nothing much except he can bang.

His fight with Fury is going to be interesting as i reckon it’ll boil down to who has the stamina 

Plus how much of the old Tyson Fury is left after his problems kept him out of the ring.

[Elsalvajeloco]

Saw this coming since I spoke about it in this very thread on like the 1st page, but still HOLY FUCKING SHIT

I find it ironic that Golden Boy and Top Rank sued PBC for their business practices, but Arum effectively started the dominos with his exodus from HBO and going to ESPN. You can't blame Haymon for this because they blacklisted Haymon and then brought back the Golden Boy boxers later on who won't signed with Haymon.

Also, the disappointing number for the Canelo-GGG rematch probably was the make or break moment. With DAZN coming in and the one guy who still has a roster and allegiance due to just signing w/ HBO being a main DAZN talent benefactor, the end was near clearly. And it's really sad because HBO was the one of the main chief architects in boxing politics yet they kept insisting that if a big fight wasn't happening it's due to promoter politics or passive aggressively saying certain fighters who just happen to not fight on their airwaves are scared and that the stars they had were the real fighters. However, you can't do that in a new age when people don't care about that. They just want big fights. If you don't make them, that's on you no matter what the circumstances were. I said for years that HBO was the network that if they put any significant pressure on Manny and Floyd, that fight would have happened way before it did. Yet, what happened? They let Manny fight Tim Bradley a billion times and folks like Chris Algieri and Brandon Rios in fights nobody wanted. They let Floyd have a couple big fights and then watched him go to Showtime. The massive buyrate that fight generated was enough for Showtime to keep investing in PBC and then later on a more manageable, reduced schedule. It was a big shot in the arm for them because they were on cruise control for several years before that. But what happened with HBO? That next year or so was horrendous and then they rebounded with some new younger faces and Canelo. Plus, they had a shot at getting Anthony Joshua. What happened? ESPN signed the young guys away, they let Showtime have Joshua for the moment so they can build the Wilder fight, and they bet big on Golovkin, Roman Gonzalez, and Kovalev all on the wrong side of 30. In the case of Chocolatito, closing in on 30 but for a fighter in those smaller weight classes he might as well be 36 or 37. They had very little direction, for years they made every excuse to not have one, and that was the death knell. This is a terrible blow for boxing, but if the future includes people who have a better idea of what the sport should be, I'm all for that.