SEPT 2018 WRESTLING DISCUSSION

[Dolfan in NYC]

 

"Significantly older" lol.   Even in a kayfabe tweet, Big E knows just how to snipe the recipient.

[Niners Fan in CT]

Yoshi gave no fucks about an etiquette. 

[Brian Fowler]

From what I vaguely remember, Ross was the better pbp man in the xfl over the generic real sports guy.

Not that Ross was notably good, just superior

[Infinit]

Didn't JR also do radio pbp for the Falcons at some point?

[odessasteps]

35 minutes ago, Infinit said:

Didn't JR also do radio pbp for the Falcons at some point?

He was part of the Falcons radio team when he also had a radio show on WSB. And then he jumped to New York. 

As I recall, there was resistance from the football team to having "the wrestling guy" do the games. 

[MapRef41N93W]

Has the recent boom in intergender wrestling on the indies produced any notable male face vs. female heel matches?

I was thinking today about the debates the crop up periodically about intergender wrestling, and it occurred to me that women wrestling as heels against men might be the real third rail of the issue. Asking the audience to get angry at a female wrestler and cheer for her male opponent to beat her up could be a tough sell. In fact, people who support intergender wrestling from a progressive standpoint might actually hope that it's a tough sell.

But that would be sort of ironic, because intergender wrestling wouldn't really be equitable if that sort of dynamic were treated as off limits. That would restrict the kinds of roles and characters that women wrestlers can play, at least when wrestling men, without there being any comparable restriction for men who wrestle women.

But I don't pay a lot of attention to the indies, so this might just be a problem in my imagination.

[odessasteps]

I would think you could do a female version of the progressive liberal character in red state areas, akin to Tammy’s faux Hillary in SMW. Or a super obnoxious feminist who demands special treatment because she is a woman fighting men. 

[Matt D]

10 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

I would think you could do a female version of the progressive liberal character in red state areas, akin to Tammy’s faux Hillary in SMW. Or a super obnoxious feminist who demands special treatment because she is a woman fighting men. 

If Tammy had been in better health in 2016, she could have probably made a ton of money portraying the Hillary character in the south as a heel manager.

[SorceressKnight]

The only really "good" male face vs. female heel match that comes to mind was Keith Lee vs. Angelus Layne from NOVA Pro, and that worked because you had years of buildup going to the point where finally they said "okay, you went too far. This is your punishment."

You're not going to get that much buildup for most matches, and doing that is incredibly hard if not impossible. (Heck, even Lee vs. Layne had that, where the promotion had years of buildup getting to the point where "the only way to truly punish her is to put her in this match", and even THAT had to end with Lee saying "yeah, she's tough as hell and I respect her".) 

[AxB]

The worst booked Man vs Woman feud was Kip James (Billy Gunn) vs Christy Hemme. Partly because it could never lead to a  one on one match, partly because it was a misogynist vs woman feud where the man was the babyface (Thanks Russo), and party because the issue was "Women don't belong in Wrestling". It ended with VKM bringing in Roxxi Lavueax to counter Hemme from interfering in their matches with the Rock n Rave Infection. Thus conceding defeat in the thing they were actually arguing about... even though he won the feud in the ring because Russo can't even remember his own angles while he's running them.

[The Natural]

Apologies if posted recently:

 

[RIPPA]

9 hours ago, MapRef41N93W said:

Has the recent boom in intergender wrestling on the indies produced any notable male face vs. female heel matches?

SK already mentioned it but the answer is the Lee/Layne match

Granted Lee technically wasn't a "face" in the way you are describing it more, since it was more a hired gun who just happened to be one of (if not the) #1 indie guy at that moment.

But Layne was the clear heel.. though it is wrestling and making the leap that throwing a fireball in the promoter's face is a babyface move isn't THAT much of a stretch

[Matt D]

I was going to cry foul at Sin Cara of all people being named as Grand Marshall of the Sun Bowl Parade, but then I saw this list

https://www.elpasotimes.com/story/news/history/blogs/tales-from-the-morgue/2015/10/27/sun-bowl-grand-marshals-1936-2015/74712874/

and yeah, it's pretty much right on the mark, especially considering he's from El Paso. 

[RIPPA]

Dora the Explorer > Sin Cara

[NikoBaltimore]

4 minutes ago, RIPPA said:

Dora the Explorer > Sin Cara

I would argue  Iron Man, Thor and Spider-Man (2012)>Dora the Explorer>Sin Cara  but that's just me.

And the only times I've been fine with intergender wrestling are times where the guy's an Andy Kaufman type guy.  Lucha Underground does intengender matches and it can either be relatively okay or it could be a bunch awkward as fuck.  If it's holds and flippy stuff, sure.  But if it's a punch/kick fest then I tune out.

[mattdangerously]

33 minutes ago, RIPPA said:

Dora the Explorer > Sin Cara

Pssh. Can Dora take Chris Jericho in a fight? Doubtful.

[Just Dave]

3 hours ago, RIPPA said:

SK already mentioned it but the answer is the Lee/Layne match

Granted Lee technically wasn't a "face" in the way you are describing it more, since it was more a hired gun who just happened to be one of (if not the) #1 indie guy at that moment.

But Layne was the clear heel.. though it is wrestling and making the leap that throwing a fireball in the promoter's face is a babyface move isn't THAT much of a stretch

Jordynne Grace, while not normally a heel, wrestled a style against dudes that would be effective as a heel against the right male. She’s going to be a st-aaar.

[Nice Guy Eddie]

2 hours ago, Matt D said:

I was going to cry foul at Sin Cara of all people being named as Grand Marshall of the Sun Bowl Parade, but then I saw this list

https://www.elpasotimes.com/story/news/history/blogs/tales-from-the-morgue/2015/10/27/sun-bowl-grand-marshals-1936-2015/74712874/

and yeah, it's pretty much right on the mark, especially considering he's from El Paso. 

They're never topping this one.

Jan 1, 1975 Mickey Mantle

[Pete]

16 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

They're never topping this one.

Jan 1, 1975 Mickey Mantle

Nov 25, 2010  The City of El Paso for being named the 2010 All American City

That had to be one crowded grand marshal car and one empty parade.

[nate]

37 minutes ago, Pete said:

Nov 25, 2010  The City of El Paso for being named the 2010 All American City

That had to be one crowded grand marshal car and one empty parade.

No, no, it's the city itself, not the people in it.  God no, never the people in it ... bleh ....

[SorceressKnight]

3 hours ago, NikoBaltimore said:

And the only times I've been fine with intergender wrestling are times where the guy's an Andy Kaufman type guy.  Lucha Underground does intengender matches and it can either be relatively okay or it could be a bunch awkward as fuck.  If it's holds and flippy stuff, sure.  But if it's a punch/kick fest then I tune out.

Honestly, with intergender I think it depends on the internal rules of the promotion. CHIKARA's good with intergender because their internal rules are "yeah, it's an intergender match, what of it? She's a good wrestler, he's a good wrestler, they both respect each other's abilities as wrestlers, it's a fair fight", which combined with the "it's supposed to feel like a comic book", makes it seem perfectly reasonable.

Lucha Underground has come close to that, but it's spoiled by Matt Striker being terrible at announcing those matches. Sexy Star's matches were a good example, since invariably it's:

Sexy Star on offense: "Sexy Star is striking a blow for women everywhere and showing you can do anything you set your mind to!"

Sexy Star on defense: "HOW COULD YOU??? How could you dare to hurt that innocent little flower? She's only a defenseless woman! She'd never have a chance to fight back against you, you big mean brute man!"

Instantly, the whole match is destroyed, as it's not even the indies' "woman fights for respect, gets respect from her opponent, repeat every time she fights a man" storyline, but the point that even if a woman in Lucha Underground proves their internal rules are "women are on equal ground to men", and the women survive, thrive, and even hold the World Title to prove they're on equal ground to men, the announcers keep telling you "no, they're not equal and never will be".

[Nice Guy Eddie]

Some intergender matches for y'all, two of which feature Matt Riddle.

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

 

[Zakk_Sabbath]

I wonder if people would be cooler with intergender wrestling presented as a serious exhibition if there is less of a size disparity with the male performer. For example, I would've been totally cool with like a Becky Lynch vs James Ellsworth back when that was going on, but I can bet I'd probably be less comfortable if she was working with, say, I don't know EC3. Maybe that falls under the umbrella of it being easier to suspend disbelief or maybe it's just the actual physical optics, I really can't pinpoint it. 

[odessasteps]

10 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

I wonder if people would be cooler with intergender wrestling presented as a serious exhibition if there is less of a size disparity with the male performer. For example, I would've been totally cool with like a Becky Lynch vs James Ellsworth back when that was going on, but I can bet I'd probably be less comfortable if she was working with, say, I don't know EC3. Maybe that falls under the umbrella of it being easier to suspend disbelief or maybe it's just the actual physical optics, I really can't pinpoint it. 

I think one reason it's generally worked in Chikara is the roster has  generally been on the smaller size. Sara did not look out of place with most of their guys. I dont remember her working against Brodie or Kingston or Hero, let alone Claudio. Admittedly, Daizee was smaller and might have been more of an issue. 

That said, I dont think i would have wanted to see Kingston maul Sara or Daizee the way he did Shane Storm or Tim Donst. 

[Web Conn]

I see Dennis Stamp was never booked as Grand Marshal. In El Paso for crying out loud.