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JULY 2018 WRESTLING DISCUSSION.


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40 minutes ago, Craig H said:

Holy shit. I wonder how Kobashi is getting around these days.

Really well, all things considered. He promotes a few shows under the Fortune Dream name, announces some big matches for NOAH and All Japan, and interviews other wrestlers in a longer sit down setting. Here’s a recent clip of one with Meiko Satomura, which isn’t translated but does let you see him move around a little. His knees are quite clearly still shot, but otherwise he looks and sounds really good. 

And here’s him demonstrating some mobility stuff he does:

 

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Yeah, it's easy to forget how great NOAH was up until '06ish. New Japan had its moments here and there during that period but was largely a mess, whereas NOAH was putting on the best wrestling in the world in front of rabid crowds. If they could've just built up another star or two...

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Random thought while going through some old wrestling videos.

 

I'm shocked that WWE hasn't tried to push a group as Degeneration NEXT.. not only was the original one of the most popular groups in WWE history, it would give HHH someone new to bury, and make him feel like one of the boys again. ;)

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1 hour ago, SirFozzie said:

I'm shocked that WWE hasn't tried to push a group as Degeneration NEXT.. not only was the original one of the most popular groups in WWE history, it would give HHH someone new to bury, and make him feel like one of the boys again. ;)

When equivalent lunacy occurs to me, I do my best to suppress the instinct to give it voice. You never know who's listening. 

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2 hours ago, CreativeControl said:

Remember when Cactus being (safely) powerbombed on the floor was a major holy shit moment? Fuck Japan, seriously. As much as I enjoyed NOAH back in the day them and the like have a lot to answer for

Seriously.  I was just reminded that Misawa died of "internal decapitation."  Let's repeat that just in case.  INTERNAL DECAPITATION.  His skull literally separated from the rest of his body inside his neck.  This shit's not worth that.  And then, years later, Shibata breaks his brain shoot headbutting dudes.  I watch and enjoy NJPW but holy fuck, guys, it's a fucking work.

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I once had an argument with someone on Reddit about which company had a safer in-ring style, New Japan or WWE. I think the thread was some posters making their case for Nakamura to come back to New Japan, and I said - besides the fact that he moved across the world to work for WWE - that they also have a style that's easier on his body, compared to New Japan. That was not a popular comment. I got downvoted into oblivion, and I was given the reason of "less days on the road" and the abundance of tag and multi-man matches as factors in New Japan having a safer style than WWE.

On the subject of Misawa - didn't he pass away from a botched belly-to-back suplex? It's not like he was taking some crazy bump off the apron or headbutting people 15 times in one match. Granted I haven't seen Misawa's final match (and I don't even know if it's readily available, tbh), but I think it was just a freak accident like Perro Aguayo Jr's death.

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It wasn't even botched, he'd just taken that much cumulative damage on top of feeling like he was still carrying the company that he wouldn't retire or take a back seat. Misawa's death really left a sour taste in my mouth and I felt partially to blame for taking enjoyment out of that hard hitting high impact style they perfected. 

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19 hours ago, Craig H said:

Neither do I. They did bring that up to someone though and that person vetoed it saying they shouldn't be the one to end the streak. I'm not sure if that was Batista or Edge or whoever, but I swear that happened.

I vaguely recall this allegedly being Randy Orton.

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5 hours ago, Casey said:

I once had an argument with someone on Reddit about which company had a safer in-ring style, New Japan or WWE. I think the thread was some posters making their case for Nakamura to come back to New Japan, and I said - besides the fact that he moved across the world to work for WWE - that they also have a style that's easier on his body, compared to New Japan.

FWIW, Meltzer has said on a couple occasions that Nakamura's jump to the WWE was partly because "he saw the writing on the wall."  I don't recall Dave quite explaining what he meant, but from the context of the conversations, I assumed he meant that Nak thought he might break down physically sooner instead of later if he stayed in NJPW.

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I think it was that Nak knew he was heading down the card like Tanahashi has been. Tana is still a huge star and one of the most popular wrestlers in Japan but he is below Okada, Omega, and Naito in the pecking order for sure and it looks like Ibushi and Jay White are getting established ahead of him now also. Nakamura knew that staying in NJPW would lead to the same situation for him less big opportunities more mid card matches so he wanted to try his hand elsewhere work his future might look different and even if it didn't/doesn't work out he can come back to NJPW somewhat fresh again from being away and go back to a similar spot as he left. 

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I don't think Tanahashi is below any of those guys, besides Okada, who is over everybody.  Tanahashi still gets a lot of main events and high profile spots.  He's probably going to main event WK this year.

Even if Nak was clearly on the downside of his career there, he still had the CHAOS split and Okada feud to run with, both of which would've carried him near the top of the card for a long time.

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I don't really buy "breaking down physically" argument. Nakamura usually didn't do crazy stuff and if he had some health problems then I'm sure that he could have worked out Suzuki-type deal who tends to bump little while still being one of the featured stars.

2 minutes ago, EVA said:

I don't think Tanahashi is below any of those guys, besides Okada, who is over everybody.  Tanahashi still gets a lot of main events and high profile spots.  He's probably going to main event WK this year.

Even if Nak was clearly on the downside of his career there, he still had the CHAOS split and Okada feud to run with, both of which would've carried him near the top of the card for a long time.

I think it is not really about being below or above someone (after all we have no idea how things would look if Nakamura and AJ didn't leave), but that he had ceiling and realized that he wasn't going to break it. Like your mentioned feud with Okada would have obviously ended with Nakamura getting pinned.

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Archibald said things much better than I did. Reaching his ceiling is probably a better way of putting it than being positioned one way or the other. Nakamura saw the way the landscape of NJPW was shifting and decided to try something else to see if he could achieve more. He knew if he stayed he'd probably never be IWGP champion again he'd get high profile matches still but wanted to see if he could go and have a top spot somewhere else.

When he left he was the obvious #3 guy with Okada and Tanahashi above him so he'd go somewhere else and try to achieve something more also likely knowing that absence makes the heart fonder and in wrestling the matchups fresher so he could always go back to NJPW and return to the same (or higher) standing. 

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I don't know what ceiling he was butting up against, though.  He was already a 3-time IWGP champion and had elevated the IC title to virtually equal status, to the point the fans voted it into the main event of WK one year.  He was already at the top.  I doubt there was any more money to be made or status to be achieved by beating Okada and running around with the IWGP title yet again (although he most assuredly would have, at some point).

I mean, if Nak doesn't leave, the WK11 main even was pretty obviously going to be Okada/Nak, not Okada/Omega.  (And what a different world we'd all be living in, if that had been the case).  It doesn't get any bigger than that.

I think he went to WWE when he did because he's always been enamored with the West and wanted to try to make it here before he was too old to give it his best shot.

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7 hours ago, Technico Support said:

Seriously.  I was just reminded that Misawa died of "internal decapitation."  Let's repeat that just in case.  INTERNAL DECAPITATION.  His skull literally separated from the rest of his body inside his neck.  This shit's not worth that.  And then, years later, Shibata breaks his brain shoot headbutting dudes.  I watch and enjoy NJPW but holy fuck, guys, it's a fucking work.

I didn't watch much Japanese wrestling, but I recall in the aftermath of Misawa's death people were mentioning how bad his neck had been for years and despite that he continued to take that neck drop back suplex in pretty much every match. So that catastrophic injury could have happened at any time. But yeah, I watch New Japan and all the knees to the face and the stiff hard elbows to the head. It's great that you can show you're a tough guy and take it. But also it's like you don't have to kill yourself for the sake of the match.

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