Let's Discuss the WON Hall of Fame

[SorceressKnight]

6 hours ago, OSJ said:

24. Is there any reason to believe that he was
better or worse than he appeared?

It would be hard to be better than Arn appeared to be. 
 

Honestly from the Gordy List, this would probably tie into my Peter Principle remark with Angle, and unfortunately it doesn't bode well for Anderson.

The big problem for "is he better or worse than he appeared" was that Arn Anderson probably knew his limitations better than any wrestler in the business, and as a result was good at playing to his strengths better than anyone else. 

This was a blessing- it made AA so good in the ring, but a curse- because it ties to the "better or worse" fact. Arn Anderson just KNEW he was the platonic ideal of a good solid midcard hand- able to be great against any opponent you put him against, good at tag team work and singles work- but it also meant that Anderson never quite played into his "What's his level of incompetence?" because Anderson knew the right role to put him in: Solid midcard hand and Flair's enforcer. 

It does say something with Anderson he always shows up on the list of "Best wrestlers to never win the World Championship"...but it says arguably more for this question that unlike most of the names who show up on that list (where there's invariably AT LEAST ONE moment in time where you knew "wait, why DIDN'T they go all in on them as World Champion there?")-  for all of Anderson's career, there just was never ONE MOMENT where the window was clearly open for Arn Anderson to even CONTEND for the World Title in NWA/WCW, much less be the World Champion himself.  He was just too accepted as Ric Flair's enforcer/sidekick, to the point that you couldn't even imagine Arn Anderson and Ric Flair feuding with each other. 

[OSJ]

5 hours ago, francescofuoco1998 said:

An other controversial choise was Hiroshi Hase, I think. He was a very good worker for a short period.

People gave him credit as a booker, but, as John Williams wrote, Riki Choshu was the head booker.

Do you agree?

 

Hase was a joke of a choice, inducted largely because he got credit as a booker, when all he really did was carry out Choshu's instructions. We'll get to Hase in due course.

[OSJ]

29 minutes ago, SorceressKnight said:

Honestly from the Gordy List, this would probably tie into my Peter Principle remark with Angle, and unfortunately it doesn't bode well for Anderson.

The big problem for "is he better or worse than he appeared" was that Arn Anderson probably knew his limitations better than any wrestler in the business, and as a result was good at playing to his strengths better than anyone else. 

This was a blessing- it made AA so good in the ring, but a curse- because it ties to the "better or worse" fact. Arn Anderson just KNEW he was the platonic ideal of a good solid midcard hand- able to be great against any opponent you put him against, good at tag team work and singles work- but it also meant that Anderson never quite played into his "What's his level of incompetence?" because Anderson knew the right role to put him in: Solid midcard hand and Flair's enforcer. 

It does say something with Anderson he always shows up on the list of "Best wrestlers to never win the World Championship"...but it says arguably more for this question that unlike most of the names who show up on that list (where there's invariably AT LEAST ONE moment in time where you knew "wait, why DIDN'T they go all in on them as World Champion there?")-  for all of Anderson's career, there just was never ONE MOMENT where the window was clearly open for Arn Anderson to even CONTEND for the World Title in NWA/WCW, much less be the World Champion himself.  He was just too accepted as Ric Flair's enforcer/sidekick, to the point that you couldn't even imagine Arn Anderson and Ric Flair feuding with each other. 

You pretty much nailed it, my friend. Had Arn come around even five years earlier, he'd be in the conversation with Dibiase and Windham as guys that should have had a run with the NWA strap in JCP. As it is, from day one he was booked as Flair's buddy/enforcer/sidekick to the point that years later when they DID square off, it just seemed totally surreal. I give Marty Lunde all the credit in the world for a sense of self-awareness that most wrestlers (hell, most people in general) lack and the willingness to make the absolute most of his role in the company. 

[Godfrey]

42 minutes ago, SorceressKnight said:

It does say something with Anderson he always shows up on the list of "Best wrestlers to never win the World Championship"...but it says arguably more for this question that unlike most of the names who show up on that list (where there's invariably AT LEAST ONE moment in time where you knew "wait, why DIDN'T they go all in on them as World Champion there?")-  for all of Anderson's career, there just was never ONE MOMENT where the window was clearly open for Arn Anderson to even CONTEND for the World Title in NWA/WCW, much less be the World Champion himself.  He was just too accepted as Ric Flair's enforcer/sidekick, to the point that you couldn't even imagine Arn Anderson and Ric Flair feuding with each other. 

I just listened to the What Happened When for Slamboree 1993 and Tony made an argument that if they were ever going to put a world title on Arn, it would've been that moment. I wonder if the Horsemen hadn't reformed that same night whether AA could've had a run as champ, even if it was only transitionally. 

[Contentious C]

I was going to ask John what Sakuraba match he's talking about, with the fucking badass submission after gliding face-first down Hamburger Hill, but of course there's Youtube I could ask instead. Simply entering "Kazushi Sakuraba breaks ankle" into the search box leads you there. 

 

[OSJ]

1 hour ago, Contentious C said:

I was going to ask John what Sakuraba match he's talking about, with the fucking badass submission after gliding face-first down Hamburger Hill, but of course there's Youtube I could ask instead. Simply entering "Kazushi Sakuraba breaks ankle" into the search box leads you there. 

 

That's the one! Sorry, I couldn't remember the other dude's name, I should have just done the same search that you did. I am a fool!

Thankfully it's over in the 1st, Guy and Michael are just fucking insufferable as the announce team.

[OSJ]

1 hour ago, Godfrey said:

I just listened to the What Happened When for Slamboree 1993 and Tony made an argument that if they were ever going to put a world title on Arn, it would've been that moment. I wonder if the Horsemen hadn't reformed that same night whether AA could've had a run as champ, even if it was only transitionally. 

Sadly, (and I say this as a huge fan of both guys), I don't think an Arn run on top would have been any better accepted (or booked) than the disastrous Ronnie Garvin run. The fans wanted flamboyant champs like Flair or Sting, even Luger wasn't flamboyant enough to capture the imagination. Guys like Garvin and Arn were throwbacks to the Harley Race era and even Harley would have had difficulty getting over in the 1990s. 

The one thing that might have saved Arn is that he is a top-5 all-time mic worker and Race and Garvin were just okay when it came to mic work. Ronnie could get his talking points across and Harley would growl and snarl and convince you that someone was going to die, but Arn would talk you into buying a ticket for next week's show because he was going to hurt somebody for real.

[OSJ]

I guess nobody wants to talk about Jackie Fargo, I'm just not qualified to really discuss that era of Memphis wrestling and while I know that the Fargos toured all over and were an attraction, they were never THE attraction, so what I'm looking at (unless anyone can chime in with some other positives) is a tag-team guy that was insanely over in his own backyard, but didn't mean much in the greater scheme of things. Have I missed something?

[Matt D]

Influence. Without Fargo there's no Jerry Lawler. The more tangential argument (but one I find interesting) is that with no Fargo, there's no Fabulous Ones and thus no pretty boy babyface tag team boom. 

[OSJ]

Okay, in 1997 Dave made the selections again, and gave us a list of folks that if they aren't included, you might as well burn the thing dowm. The only two that folks might have initial questions about are William Muldoon and Jimmy Lennon. There's an extensive bio on Muldoon up at Wikipedia that is amazingly accurate. Basically, were it not for him there might not be any pro wrestling in the US, a huge influence despite being active for only a decade. 

To say that Jimmy Lennon was "just" an announcer is like saying Lance Russell was "just" an announcer. He was the voice of wrestling in LA for a longass time and well deserving of induction, (and I'm saying this without Yohe holding a gun to my head.)

1998 The voters agreed on Dos Caras and despite siring Alberto del Rio, he fully deserves induction, arguably the best heavyweight to ever come out of Mexico. He incorporated the US style into his lucha background which made his matches much more palatable to a US audience unfamiliar with the lucha tropes. 

[OSJ]

5 minutes ago, Matt D said:

Influence. Without Fargo there's no Jerry Lawler. The more tangential argument (but one I find interesting) is that with no Fargo, there's no Fabulous Ones and thus no pretty boy babyface tag team boom. 

You nailed it, however, being a contrarian, I would have to ask "How important is it to have influenced a local draw who catapulted to national fame on the strength of feuding with a non-wrestler comedian?" Now I'm a huge fan of Lawler  and once he got the ball handed to him he ran with it like nobody's business, but we can't credit Fargo with that. 

The more tangential argument is a very interesting one. Fargo gets a lot of credit for the Fabs, which MAY have led to the boom in pretty-boy face teams, I say MAY have as very few ideas are wholly original and promoters were looking for ways to draw in the young female demographic (probably after seeing footage of thousands of screaming girls at the AJPW womens' matches). Anyway, without Lane and Keirn would someone else have teamed two good-looking guys up to draw in the ladies? I sort of think it likely, Georgia or Florida being likely spots. Up in WWWF country they were pretty oblivious to the idea.

[francescofuoco1998]

John, about the WON HOF, did Meltzer ever say who were active and retired wrestlers voters?

It's just a curiosity.

[Kuetsar]

Let me preface this by saying I don't watch wrestling nearly as much as most of you do, and haven't watched much since the early 2000's(depression is a bitch and interests that go seem to not come back sometimes). Not to say I don't follow on the internet and such, but I'll plead ignorance on some stuff.

One that kind of sticks out for me is Ted Dibiase. Great run in 1988, obviously, and I know he did great in the UWF/Mid south, but I would think he comes up a little short on the Gordy list. It just seems weird he went in on the no-brainer first class.

I'll put in a word for Rick Rude. Really shitty for the first half of his career, but he was REALLY good for a five year stretch from 1989-1994 or so, and is one of only three people to get good matches out of the Warrior, others being Savage, and Pat Patterson/Hogan. Plus tremendous on the Mic. He falls sort, but he seems like a fun discussion.

As for AA, not disputing he was great on the mic, but top-five seems a bit high. I would think a top five would be some combo of Flair,Hogan, Rock, Austin, and then Dusty, Mick, or some one else I'm forgetting, and that doesn't include managers like Bobby and Jim Cornette. 

[Matt D]

1 hour ago, OSJ said:

You nailed it, however, being a contrarian, I would have to ask "How important is it to have influenced a local draw who catapulted to national fame on the strength of feuding with a non-wrestler comedian?" Now I'm a huge fan of Lawler  and once he got the ball handed to him he ran with it like nobody's business, but we can't credit Fargo with that. 

The more tangential argument is a very interesting one. Fargo gets a lot of credit for the Fabs, which MAY have led to the boom in pretty-boy face teams, I say MAY have as very few ideas are wholly original and promoters were looking for ways to draw in the young female demographic (probably after seeing footage of thousands of screaming girls at the AJPW womens' matches). Anyway, without Lane and Keirn would someone else have teamed two good-looking guys up to draw in the ladies? I sort of think it likely, Georgia or Florida being likely spots. Up in WWWF country they were pretty oblivious to the idea.

There are definite caveats when it comes to the the WON HOF. It is 1) is a creature of hearsay and reputation and 2) a product of the tastes of Dave, his wrestling buddies, and the reader-base. It's not a popular argument, but I think JYD probably shouldn't be in, despite his merits and the arguments for him, because in the history of the WON, he was such a ridiculed figure. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The arguments FOR JYD are basically too good for the WON HOF. That's point 2.

Back to point 1: there isn't a single Ray Stevens match on tape that shows an iota of why he is seen as one of the greatest workers of all time (especially if you compare him to his partners like Patterson, where we can see the signs clearly, and Bockwinkel, who we can see in pure, sparkling crystal). Brody is hugely problematic if you actually sit down and watch a bunch of Brody matches, especially relative both to his peers (Abby, Mongolian Stomper, etc.) and his copycats (Nord is astonishingly better as the Berzerker: Eric Ritz actually's gone back and looked at pretty much every Berzerker match on tape; Harper's work speaks for itself). So far as footage goes, we don't have a ton of 70s Fargo, but what we do have shows him to be extremely over, an excellent brawler offensively, and a very good, emotive seller with a great grasp of timing. For the sake of the WON HOF, I'm not sure how much that matters, but it's another tick at least. 

[OSJ]

12 minutes ago, francescofuoco1998 said:

John, about the WON HOF, did Meltzer ever say who were active and retired wrestlers voters?

It's just a curiosity.

No, he didn't nor should he really. If someone wants to reveal his or herself as a voter, then fine. But I don't think Dave should do it, nor should he tell anyone else. He wouldn't tell me (not that I'd ask) and we go back over thirty years, (we're not personal friends, but have loads of respect for one another and have corresponded for a longass time.)  

I can guess that Raven is one and Jericho is another, but that's just based on intuitive reasoning. Both guys really like to make their opinions about wrestling known, I would guess Jim Cornette to be another voter, though he and Dave seem to have this love/hate thing going on. 

[OSJ]

32 minutes ago, Kuetsar said:

Let me preface this by saying I don't watch wrestling nearly as much as most of you do, and haven't watched much since the early 2000's(depression is a bitch and interests that go seem to not come back sometimes). Not to say I don't follow on the internet and such, but I'll plead ignorance on some stuff.

One that kind of sticks out for me is Ted Dibiase. Great run in 1988, obviously, and I know he did great in the UWF/Mid south, but I would think he comes up a little short on the Gordy list. It just seems weird he went in on the no-brainer first class.

I'll put in a word for Rick Rude. Really shitty for the first half of his career, but he was REALLY good for a five year stretch from 1989-1994 or so, and is one of only three people to get good matches out of the Warrior, others being Savage, and Pat Patterson/Hogan. Plus tremendous on the Mic. He falls sort, but he seems like a fun discussion.

As for AA, not disputing he was great on the mic, but top-five seems a bit high. I would think a top five would be some combo of Flair,Hogan, Rock, Austin, and then Dusty, Mick, or some one else I'm forgetting, and that doesn't include managers like Bobby and Jim Cornette. 

Dibiase benefits a whole lot from Dave's love of Mid-South and the Watts UWF.  But do consider, before going to WWF Ted was always in the discussion of "Who should have had a run with the NWA strap", and I don't know that I'd disagree with that assessment, even past his prime he was one hell of a worker.  A Gordy List on Ted would be interesting, but I think he measures up (not as a no-brainer, but thinking of all the positives, I think he earned his spot.) 

Yeah, I loved me some Rick Rude after he figured out how to work. He gets a seat at the table with Garvin, Hennig, Arn, El Samurai, and the other guys in the Hall of the Very Good. 

Mic work is a matter of personal taste, I always found Hogan to be incoherent, and I prefer AA's no-nonsense approach to Mick, Dusty, and Austin. (They all fit in my top-ten, but rank below Arn). Another guy that doesn't get talked about enough for his mic skills or body of work is Bill Eadie. I'm not saying that he's a HOFr, but he is a very interesting case to look at. I don't think anyone else has ever been so successful with so many completely different gimmicks. 

[Matt D]

One of the other big problems with discussing the WON HOF is that so much of it is predicated on drawing power and relative card placement, both over time, which really can be the least interesting elements of wrestling to talk about. I promise you I enjoyed the discussions we did for the PWOGWE project (quick results here: http://gweproject.freeforums.net/thread/3/pwo-2016-greatest-wrestler) or the DVDVR AWA set far more than any discussions I've ever had on the WON HOF. The most interesting things to argue about in wrestling are the aesthetics. 

 

 

[OSJ]

30 minutes ago, Matt D said:

There are definite caveats when it comes to the the WON HOF. It is 1) is a creature of hearsay and reputation and 2) a product of the tastes of Dave, his wrestling buddies, and the reader-base. It's not a popular argument, but I think JYD probably shouldn't be in, despite his merits and the arguments for him, because in the history of the WON, he was such a ridiculed figure. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The arguments FOR JYD are basically too good for the WON HOF. That's point 2.

Back to point 1: there isn't a single Ray Stevens match on tape that shows an iota of why he is seen as one of the greatest workers of all time (especially if you compare him to his partners like Patterson, where we can see the signs clearly, and Bockwinkel, who we can see in pure, sparkling crystal). Brody is hugely problematic if you actually sit down and watch a bunch of Brody matches, especially relative both to his peers (Abby, Mongolian Stomper, etc.) and his copycats (Nord is astonishingly better as the Berzerker: Eric Ritz actually's gone back and looked at pretty much every Berzerker match on tape; Harper's work speaks for itself). So far as footage goes, we don't have a ton of 70s Fargo, but what we do have shows him to be extremely over, an excellent brawler offensively, and a very good, emotive seller with a great grasp of timing. For the sake of the WON HOF, I'm not sure how much that matters, but it's another tick at least. 

@Matt D, some good stuff, buddy! 

To your first point, JYD is in and deservedly so. Long before he got fat and lazy and we started calling him the Junkfood Dog, he was a tremendous draw in the South. I don't want to play the race card, but JYD drew the audience of black fans who really couldn't be bothered with the succession of lily-white wrestlers trotted out by most promoters. JYD wasn't just a major star to black fans (though he certainly was that), EVERYBODY loved him. He was a huge draw on top throughout some very hot territories and the attendance spikes with him on top are right there to look at. Yeah, he turned into a joke, and a bad one at that, but he'd already earned his place in the HOF. I don't think that even his horrible decline was bad enough to offset the positives. Again, we're not talking about a Bearcat Wright wrestling in the North and out on the West Coast, we're talking about a black dude in the deep South who everyone regardless of ethnicity loved. The man broke some walls down, that has to count for something.

Ray Stevens: I'm with you, I think it a Frankie Frisch scenario and I'm not sold. I think that the idea of Ray Stevens took over from the reality of Ray Stevens. The evidence in his favor as a draw doesn't seem to be there, (like Fargo, he seems to have been a draw, but not THE draw.) We're left with talk of how great he was in the ring, and maybe there's a bunch of tapes in a vault that prove this, but I'm not seeing it.

You're talking to the wrong guy about Brody, I flat out thought he sucked as a worker, it's a damn shame he got knifed, but he belongs nowhere near the HOF, despite his runs in Japan. 

[francescofuoco1998]

I think that, today, some of the voters are Kenny Omega, Young Bucks, Daniel Bryan, Bret Hart, maybe also Bruno Sammartino in the past, considering that they were/are guests a lot of time.

[OSJ]

7 minutes ago, Matt D said:

One of the other big problems with discussing the WON HOF is that so much of it is predicated on drawing power and relative card placement, both over time, which really can be the least interesting elements of wrestling to talk about. I promise you I enjoyed the discussions we did for the PWOGWE project (quick results here: http://gweproject.freeforums.net/thread/3/pwo-2016-greatest-wrestler) or the DVDVR AWA set far more than any discussions I've ever had on the WON HOF. The most interesting things to argue about in wrestling are the aesthetics. 

 

 

You're preaching to the choir, Matt. I have to admit that I'm grateful to certain folks on Wrestling Classics for researching box-office and PPV #s, because I damn sure don't want to. That said, as much as I prefer to discuss the aesthetics of wrestling, I can't forget it's a business the goal of which is to separate people from their money. This is why until Brian Danielson got on the national stage he had so little traction in HOF voting. Yeah, anyone like me that SAW him knew they were seeing something really special, but outside the hardcores he remained pretty much unknown (tree, forest, you get the idea).

[OSJ]

4 minutes ago, francescofuoco1998 said:

I think that, today, some of the voters are Kenny Omega, Young Bucks, Daniel Bryan, Bret Hart, maybe also Bruno Sammartino in the past, considering that they were/are guests a lot of time.

You are likely correct on all of the above.

[Matt D]

JYD isn't in. Dave doesn't want him in either. My general feeling is that he's too good for the WON HOF. 

http://placetobenation.com/premier-podcast-brand-4-the-2017-wrestling-observer-hall-of-fame-modern-candidates-more/

Dylan's done a lot of good work on his candidacy. I think some of it is in this podcast with Kris.

[OSJ]

Well stupid fucking me, I thought he was in as a no-brainer on the first wave! That's what I get for spending my time tag-teaming with Yohe and banging on Dave about guys like Hans Schmidt, Enrique Torres, and Bearcat Wright. Hell, someone's got to do it.

[Ace]

I'm fairly certain JR and Corney are voters. 

 

[OSJ]

1 hour ago, Ace said:

I'm fairly certain JR and Corney are voters. 

 

I'm 100% certain that you're right.