The best wrestlers of all time

[francescofuoco1998]

Good afternoon. Like last time I opened a poll in which you should compare some of the best wrestlers of all time.

The criteria is exclusively IN RING ABILITY.

 

The comparisons are:

-Bret Hart vs Ricky Steamboat

-Jushin Liger vs Dynamite Kid

-Daniel Bryan vs Eddie Guerrero

-Chris Benoit vs Toshiaki Kawada

-AJ Styles vs Hiroshi Tanahashi

-Rey Mysterio vs Kenta Kobashi

 

 

Thank you very much

 

 

 

Thank you very much

[Web Conn]

No Flair?

[francescofuoco1998]

4 minutes ago, Web Conn said:

No Flair?

It's obiouvsly one of the best.

Many others missed the poll like Shawn Michaels, Tatsumi Fujinami, Jun Akiyama, Jumbo Tsuruta. I will put them next time.

[John from Cincinnati]

What about the Young Bucks?

[Nice Guy Eddie]

The best wrestler of all time? 

You guessed it...

[OSJ]

10 minutes ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

What about the Young Bucks?

ban plz

 

;-)

[Nice Guy Eddie]

2 hours ago, Web Conn said:

No Flair?

Not fair to Flair

[OSJ]

Francesco:

 

You've done some close polls before, but this one is simply diabolical. I DO have some quibbles (as you knew I would), that we'll get to in due course, but for now, let's have a look...

1. Hart / Steamboat: I'm going with Brett only because he was equally adept at the heel/face dynamic, but it's really close. 

2. Liger / Dynamite Kid: Okay, here's problem #1, we have to compare broken-down and beat-up Liger, who has mostly been doing schtick for the last twenty years, with a guy that blew himself out of the business while still relatively young. Thing is, I recall a match from last year that showed that 54 year-old Liger could still bring it. I'm going with Jushin Liger based on longevity. 

3. Eddie Guerrero / Daniel Bryan: As far as pure wrestling, Bryan has a few tricks in his bag that Eddie didn't.

4. Kawada / Benoit: As great as Kawada was, no one has ever made me believe like Chris Benoit. Arguably the best ever.

5. Styles / Tanahashi: Okay, we're currently watching two guys on the wrong side of forty put on incredible matches. You could make the argument that Tanahashi has a better cast of opponents overall, but it's pretty hard to top Nakamura as a regular foil, which is what A.J. has. I'm going to say career = Tanahashi, current = A.J. but again, it's really, really close. 

6. Rey / Kobashi: Rey has never had the advantage of working with guys that were as good or better on a regular basis like Kobashi did, have to go with Kobashi, but a lot of that is based on his caliber of opponents.

BTW: Jumbo trumps everyone on this list.

[francescofuoco1998]

John. You're right, Benoit was probably the best wrestler ever, better also than Misawa, Danielson, Bret. 

He was a machine. He delivered great matches with everybody, Regal, Finlay, Sid, Sting, Booker T, JBL, MVP.

I don't think that Misawa, Bret, Danielson, Steamboat would have been able to deliver a great match with Sid or Booker T.

[Jenalysis]

I remember some Bret/Booker T matches.  Bret thought the matches were good.

 

Please don't make the argument that Booker T was not better than Sid.

[francescofuoco1998]

1 minute ago, alstein said:

I remember some Bret/Booker T matches.  Bret thought the matches were good.

 

Please don't make the argument that Booker T was not better than Sid.

In general Booker T was not Sid, but when he was with bad opponents he delivered bad matches.

My statement was not to discredit Booker, but to say that Benoit was incredible. 

Anyway, I would have preferred that Benoit didn't delivered so many great matches, because that style was also responsible for what happened later.

 

About Bret vs Booker matches, I never watched them. Later I will watch them and I will compare them to Benoit vs Booker T.

[John from Cincinnati]

So I received a private message earlier from @francescofuoco1998 asking about my reasoning in some of my choices on the poll. With his consent, I'm going to go ahead and answer that here in the thread. That way, anyone else who might have an opinion can chime in. 

His message:

Quote

Hi. 

Can I ask you what do you think about Bryan Danielson, as an in ring performer/worker/wrestler? 

I noted that you voted for Eddie in the poll. Did you consider only in ring ability, or also other skills, like charisma, mic skill?

Thank you very much

I think Bryan is one of the best performers I've ever seen in professional wrestling. His high-profile independent work alone comprises a body of work that rivals most wrestlers ever. He was instrumental in defining the culture of wrestling outside of WWE in the post-WCW era, a culture which has forced WWE to broaden the net for who they will accept as a main event talent. His ascent to the top of WWE made me more viscerally happy than wrestling should be capable of. I'm thrilled that he's back in the ring. Concerns about his health aside (and none of us really know the whole story there), wrestling is more fun with Bryan Danielson in the ring.

I think that's a pretty glowing endorsement of Bryan, and I'm sure the sentiments mirror those of many, many fans.

But yes, I voted for Eddie. And I only considered their in ring ability. Mic skill is not a factor I included in my assessment. However, and we may differ on this, I feel charisma is a large part of one's in ring ability. Physical charisma, facial expressions, etc. are part of the story. It's one of the many tools available to wrestlers to pull in the fans from bell to bell, portray their character, tell their story, and take the fans on their ride. It allows people to portray themselves as a bully, an underdog, a coward, vulnerable, dangerous, etc. And while Bryan is very charismatic himself and that has played a large part in his success and greatness, I feel Eddie used what he had to greater effect over his career.

Also, while I love Bryan, I think his greatness is hindered by him helping to advance the popularity and prevalence in America of a style of wrestling which is far too heavy on dropping guys on their head and neck and giving guys concussions. Maybe this is just me being old fashioned, but I think slightly less of guys like Bryan when I consider stuff like the ringpost spot against Nigel.

Though it's not runaway difference. I hold both Eddie and Bryan in such high regard that I could see myself voting the other way if you asked me again in a week's time. 

Now you may not consider charisma to be part of the question you're asking. That's certainly your prerogative. 

I hope this was a clear, satisfactory answer to your questions.  

Speaking of charisma and storytelling and how we assess in ring ability, I think big men are wildly underrepresented in discussions like these. There are some larger wrestlers and even less athletic wrestlers who look like the have lead in their ass who I'd take over some of the guys on your poll. Just something for you to consider. 

[Sublime]

I was asked the same question RE: voting for Eddie over Bryan and here is my response:

I think very highly of Danielson, he is probably one of my favorite of all time in ring performers, however he happened to be paired against Eddie who is my favorite wrestler of all time.

The choice between the two for in-ring only was very hard and I almost voted the third option. Both men have very diverse bodies of work, both excel at every aspect of in-ring performance, Bryan is better on the mat, Eddie is better in the air. It came down to my consideration that Bryan, during his indy run, could seem self-indulgent and do things just because he was able to do them because he had the freedom to do so and sometimes that wasn't always to the benefit of a match. Whereas Eddie only ever did what the match needed, he was able to do amazing things anytime but he wasn't afraid to scale it back when the time called for it. I think Bryan is able to do the same now but hasn't always been. Bryan may also suffer from the fact that so much of his body of work has made tape that was easily accessible especially during the time he was still putting things together that maybe I'm treating him unfairly but again Eddie is my fav and that bias will be hard to overcome.

[Loki]

The only one that I couldn't vote either way was Tanahashi and AJ. I really think the world of both of them. 

[francescofuoco1998]

@West Newbury Bad Boy

Great post.

 

However, I'd like to ask you what do you think about the fact that Bryan is criticized in some Italian forums (I'm Italian) because he is not able to deliver great few minutes matches.

In the sense, in a discussion, a user wrote that Bryan's style is more static than, for example, Kurt Angle's style that is more dinamic, with fast moves, a lot of near falls, finishers. Also Eddie Guerrero and Chris Benoit had a lot of few minutes great matches in various Nitro, and also in WWE in the period 2002-2003.

What do you think about that critical?

 

To explain better a user compared two matches: the first is Bryan Danielson vs Tyler Black (ROH Southern Navigation 2008), the second is  Kurt Angle vs Edge (Backlash 2002).

Bryan vs Black was more static, with a long phase in which Bryan controlled the match with mat wrestling. There were few near falls and few moves.

Edge vs Angle was more dinamic, fast moves, near falls, a lot of action.

This user said that the second match was better because it was with a continue action, without dead phases. He also criticized Bryan vs Nigel McGuinness (ROH Unified) because, in his opinion it was static in the first 20 minutes.

 

These are the matches that he talked about.

 

[John from Cincinnati]

It's been a while since I've seen either match, so I won't comment on either right now. But I'll briefly touch on a couple of the issues you brought up.

I'm not sure I understand the criticism of Bryan having few great short matches. These days, fandom in general tends to laud many lengthier matches as the ones it considers great, so the issue is rarely touched on and audiences tend not to want short matches from guys they like (I don't necessarily agree with this preference). If it's a case of looking at a great, but short, cruiserweight match on Nitro and questioning whether or not Bryan could do that, I'm not sure that's fair. Bryan's rarely been in an environment that's demanded that of him. His time on the indies demanded main event, show stealer level matches of him on a consistent basis, so he's met that demand. His time in WWE has come in an era where there's too much TV time to fill, so he gets plenty of room to perform. Put him in WCW in 1995, I expect he would find ways to excel at what's asked of him in that context. Of course I can't say for certain. 

As far as judging wrestlers as being better if they're less static, I disagree with that line of assessment. If less static makes for better wrestling, Will Ospreay would be the GOAT. 

As far as Bryan being static, it's about context. ROH at a time demanded one thing of him, so he provided it. But his ascension in WWE came at a time where he was regularly showing himself to be an all-time-great house-of-fire hot tag who would routinely kill all three guys in the Shield by himself. He has no problem stepping on the gas when the situation demands it, and his career has benefitted from that. 

And because I'm beating the "context matters" drum so hard, I don't think I'd get much from a one-for-one comparison of the two matches you linked to. 

[francescofuoco1998]

@West Newbury Bad Boy

I agree with you.

The critical was also about the fact that second this user he had only average matches in the period 2010-2012, although he wrestled almost every week against the various Mysterio, Rhodes, Swagger, Barrett, DiBiase, Regal, Christian, Orton, Punk.

However, what do you think about his WWE style matches during the period 2010-2012.

If you remember, how would you judge his match against the various Rey Mysterio, Cody Rhodes, Ted Dibiase, Mark Henry?

 

About Eddie Guerrero, what is the period where you think he was at his peak? In WWE or during the 90s in WCW/NJPW/AAA?

[John from Cincinnati]

11 minutes ago, francescofuoco1998 said:

@West Newbury Bad Boy

I agree with you.

However, what do you think about his WWE style matches during the period 2010-2012.

If you remember, how would you judge his match against the various Rey Mysterio, Cody Rhodes, Ted Dibiase, Mark Henry?

 

About Eddie Guerrero, what is the period where you think he was at his peak? In WWE or during the 90s in WCW/NJPW/AAA?

I enjoyed his early work in WWE. I felt he was a midcard standout who was giving some guys their best singles performances to date. Ex: Dibiase, Ziggler, arguably Miz (which would hold for four months tops). He did a good job building off of his reputation and introducing himself to a new audience who came to accept him. I really enjoyed his work with Henry as well. Henry was on fire at this point and Bryan was really starting to come out of his shell as a WWE character. His matches with Sheamus during this period were fantastic and some of my favourite work of either man.

I have no recollection of any Bryan vs Mysterio matches and will be sure to check those out on the Network soon. I like the sound of that match up. 

The Eddie question is the most difficult you've posted yet. I'm not sure I have a good answer for that. It depresses me a little to say this, but regardless of his failing health I think he was doing some of his best work the year he died and he was still getting better. 

[francescofuoco1998]

1 minute ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

 The Eddie question is the most difficult you've posted yet. I'm not sure I have a good answer for that. It depresses me a little to say this, but regardless of his failing health I think he was doing some of his best work the year he died and he was still getting better. 

His last year was  really great, but he was no more at his peak, from an athletic standpoint. Reading the WON, I  learned that the night before the shows he had severe pain. There are a lot of wrestlers who confirmed that like Hardcore Holly.

[John from Cincinnati]

1 minute ago, francescofuoco1998 said:

His last year was  really great, but he was no more at his peak, from an athletic standpoint. Reading the WON, I  learned that the night before the shows he had severe pain. There are a lot of wrestlers who confirmed that like Hardcore Holly.

From an athletic standpoint, I agree . But as I said earlier, athleticism isn't necessarily the most important part of a wrestling match in my eyes. His matches against Rey on Judgement Day, Great American Bash, and SmackDown are some of my favourite stuff ever. The match where he puts Rey's mask on Jimmy Jacobs is a squash so vividly memorable that I'm talking about it 13 years later. He still had the goods as far as what I like about wrestling. 

[francescofuoco1998]

1 minute ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

From an athletic standpoint, I agree . But as I said earlier, athleticism isn't necessarily the most important part of a wrestling match in my eyes. His matches against Rey on Judgement Day, Great American Bash, and SmackDown are some of my favourite stuff ever. The match where he puts Rey's mask on Jimmy Jacobs is a squash so vividly memorable that I'm talking about it 13 years later. He still had the goods as far as what I like about wrestling. 

I remember also when he destroyed Mysterio, when he turned heel.

However, reading the WON, it was the wrong time to turn heel Eddy. He was no more over with the live crowd. Meltzer wrote that WWE had to edit the audio because in some SD episode nobody cared about their segments.

Neverthless I think that Eddy's character in 2005 was really great.

[sevendaughters]

I'd like to pull myself up for a second here. I voted Tanahashi over AJ Styles. Tanahashi is probably my favourite complete wrestler of the last decade. But if the criteria is in-ring only then I think AJ Styles deserves the vote. What I love about Tanahashi extends beyond the ring. But, as objectively as one can be, it seems fair to call Styles a better wrestler.

Of course we never really judge wrestlers based on in-ring only, but through multiple lenses including contexts, preferences, experiences, emotional states. Only yesterday I had to go to great lengths to explain why Vader was better than HBK (imo - because I like big lads who hit hard and aren't in it for MOTN).

That said I also went

- Hart over Steamboat. Good people to compare and both forerunners of that jacked middleweight psychological make-it-count style that leads you to Tanahashi. Just give it to Hart on intensity and charisma.

- Liger over Kid. I like Kid fine even though when I met him he was a mean prick. Both changed the game for men their size (as did the women of AJW, who never get enough credit in the cruiserweight pioneering stakes!) but Liger kept putting out great stuff late into his 40s. You might say that's harsh on Kid. Maybe a better comparison would be DK and Hayabusa.

- Bryan over Eddie was the hardest. I just answered a message from Francesco asking why and it boiled down to preferring the shooty intensity of Bryan. That was the sole difference. All comments from West Newbury Bad Boy above I agree with, I just swing the other way.

- Kawada over Benoit was easiest for me. I just love the hell out of Kawada.

- Kobashi over Rey was easyish but Rey was probably more of a pioneer. That said I look at Kobashi's GHC run and the variety and brilliance of that streak whilst operating on half a knee ligament and fighting spirit alone is testament to his genius.

[Go2Sleep]

On 6/18/2018 at 10:08 PM, OSJ said:

6. Rey / Kobashi: Rey has never had the advantage of working with guys that were as good or better on a regular basis like Kobashi did, have to go with Kobashi, but a lot of that is based on his caliber of opponents.

I have to disagree with this on both fronts.

1. Rey worked on good rosters for his entire mainstream career. He worked with Eddie extensively in WCW and WWE. Granted Eddie's his only regular opponent that can be mentioned along side Misawa, Kawada, and Akiyama, but he wasn't exactly working with stiffs his whole career. Plenty of matches with Malenko, Psicosis, Jericho, Chavo, etc. Hell, even in his late-stage indy run, he was getting to work with Ricochet and Low Ki.

2. Other than Misawa, I'm not sure you could make a case for any of Kobashi's regular opponents being better than him. Certainly not Taue or Akiyama. If you compare Kobashi and Kawada matches with common opponents, I think Kobashi takes most of them (losing only Taue and barely Misawa). Kobashi was also way better in matches with North American opponents than anyone in AJ, even Misawa. And that's only the first half of his career... By the NOAH days, he was head and shoulders above everyone.