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JUNE 2018 WRESTLING DISCUSSION


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6 hours ago, FireThunder said:

I don't have enough words of praise for Mustafa Ali as a wrestler or a person.

 

Seriously.... how is WWE not doing more with this guy? 

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10 minutes ago, Black Angel said:

Funny thing, he's only defended the title like 10 or 11 times during this reign. If you don't count house shows.

6 Defenses on TV.  Even better, Brock only had 17 matches total during this reign.  and *maybe* 10 more TV appearances.  For anyone counting, that's the lowest of any Pro Wrestling Champ in history.  Even Hogan showed up more than Brock during his last reign.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Victator said:

Every promotion does not need a women's division. If NJPW did start signing women, it would probably hurt the Joshi promotions. 

I think this is very difficult topic for lots of people due to whole equality and slavery thing. Once someone makes an argument that maybe some things should be kept separate for them to work better we automatically get counter arguments about inequality and segregation. And I think this is coming more from emotional than reasonable side.

Reality is this:

1. Every promotion that had/has men and women divisions has produced lots and lots of terrible stuff with women. Very rarely do we actually get something above average from these women divisions.

2. Joshi promotions have produced lots of great stuff with women.

3. Major USA promotions trying to do both divisions are probably directly responsible for Joshi equivalent not existing in USA (or the west in general) which in turn results in women wrestling being, for all intents and purposes, dead in USA. And sure, WWE now got Ronda and they try to cash in on her, but if she is gone (or her popularity wanes) then whole division will again be relegated back to piss break status. By being dead I mean it in general, nobody really knows nor talks about any upcoming women wrestlers in USA unless they work in some Joshi promotion.

Every promotion has some sort of hierarchy. You got your main belt, you got your tag belts, you got your secondary belt. As a result it is easier to book matches and develop storylines since you know what on paper should matter and what should matter less. So take for example recent Dominion card. You ain't going to place women match above any of the top four matches for obvious reasons. So you'll place women match somewhere in the middle. Which you might think sounds good enough and "progressive", but reality is that these women would probably be able to main event a Joshi show and get whole show built around them instead of being a filler.

And I wrote a bit about it in Dominion thread, how Hiromu/Ospreay to me didn't feel as big as Hiromu/Ishimori despite it happening on much bigger show. And the reason for that is that while BotSJ finals happened in much smaller arena, it was their show, they ended the show and they got twice as much time.

But wait, what if those women were really good and popular, why wouldn't you place them above those matches? Well because most of the time promotions are building towards singular goal - heavyweight title. Wrestlers are either challenging for it or are being built up for that, or they are there to put other guys over who'll challenge for it. To build up women division in same manner you'd have to dedicate same amount of time/resources and you don't have infinite amount of time/resources available so you'll prioritize one over another and thats how you end up with piss break division.

But what does it matter, they'll surely get better pay in NJPW than in small Joshi promotion. Yeah, what does it matter, everyone should just sign with WWE since it pays better.

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11 hours ago, Beech27 said:

Dave missed the obvious "Do you hate women so much you wish junior heavyweight level booking on them?" joke, but I don't think it's implausible to speculate New Japan or its parent company might set up a DDT/Tokyo Joshi situation.

I want to say there has been some mention of possibly starting a women's division by NJPW  in terms fo their general expansion plans.

3 hours ago, Archibald said:

Reality is this:

1. Every promotion that had/has men and women divisions has produced lots and lots of terrible stuff with women. Very rarely do we actually get something above average from these women divisions.

2. Joshi promotions have produced lots of great stuff with women.

3. Major USA promotions trying to do both divisions are probably directly responsible for Joshi equivalent not existing in USA (or the west in general) which in turn results in women wrestling being, for all intents and purposes, dead in USA. And sure, WWE now got Ronda and they try to cash in on her, but if she is gone (or her popularity wanes) then whole division will again be relegated back to piss break status. By being dead I mean it in general, nobody really knows nor talks about any upcoming women wrestlers in USA unless they work in some Joshi promotion.

Every promotion has some sort of hierarchy. You got your main belt, you got your tag belts, you got your secondary belt. As a result it is easier to book matches and develop storylines since you know what on paper should matter and what should matter less. So take for example recent Dominion card. You ain't going to place women match above any of the top four matches for obvious reasons. So you'll place women match somewhere in the middle. Which you might think sounds good enough and "progressive", but reality is that these women would probably be able to main event a Joshi show and get whole show built around them instead of being a filler.

And I wrote a bit about it in Dominion thread, how Hiromu/Ospreay to me didn't feel as big as Hiromu/Ishimori despite it happening on much bigger show. And the reason for that is that while BotSJ finals happened in much smaller arena, it was their show, they ended the show and they got twice as much time.

But wait, what if those women were really good and popular, why wouldn't you place them above those matches? Well because most of the time promotions are building towards singular goal - heavyweight title. Wrestlers are either challenging for it or are being built up for that, or they are there to put other guys over who'll challenge for it. To build up women division in same manner you'd have to dedicate same amount of time/resources and you don't have infinite amount of time/resources available so you'll prioritize one over another and thats how you end up with piss break division.

1. I don't think this works well since its more of a general issue of experience, talent, and booking. Full blown women's promotions can and do produce terrible shit with women. Even the best have. That happens with everyone regardless if their promotion is full men, women, or mixed.

3. I'm not sure how major US promotions can be held responsible for no joshi level promotion existing in the West. There have been plenty of women's promotions over here. Their inability to catch on big and stay alive probably has more to do with their own booking and business practices. The current push for women in WWE right now has little to do with Rousey (at least directly). She is a bonus that can help push things further. The general push in WWE has much more to do with NXT's rise, the NXT 4 Horsewomen, and the current culture.

Whether or not a division ends up a piss break has more to do with how the promotion pushes it. In the case of NJPW its more likely they treat it as a another promotion like Z1 and DDT did/do. Things failed in Z1's case since most of the women on the scene at the time had no interest in working in conjunction with a men's promotion. For DDT, their promotion has actually been on the rise the last few years and is probably one of the bigger joshi promotions around. They had the same issue Z1 had, but took their time training and building their own talent. If NJPW went that route they would avoid the piss break worry.

 

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2 hours ago, Eivion said:

1. I don't think this works well since its more of a general issue of experience, talent, and booking. Full blown women's promotions can and do produce terrible shit with women. Even the best have. That happens with everyone regardless if their promotion is full men, women, or mixed.

The difference is that one or two shit segments on a show with all women is no big deal. In a promotion like WWE, the whole night is shot for anyone watching for the women. 

If New Japan was dead set on featuring women, they could outsource to another promotion. 

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1 hour ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

So is the IWGP title not a world championship?   It's defended outside of Japan and it's pretty important to people when they win it. 

Seems like it and the Triple Crown were world title equivalents back in the day. 

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10 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

International Wrestling Grand Prix, folks. International, thus, worldwide. 

Well mind you every podunk indy usually calls its belt a world title. In stature the IWGP title is a world belt. 

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3 hours ago, Victator said:

If New Japan was dead set on featuring women, they could outsource to another promotion. 

Honestly, this would make more sense if they did that.

Just outsource the NJPW women's promotion to Women of Honor, and NJPW has a pretty good nucleus to start with. ROH is basically NJPW's development promotion, They push the women who show up in NJPW well, they have a working arrangement with STARDOM and thus one of the top joshi feds, opening another place to ally with NJPW. 

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