MAY 2018 WRESTLING DISCUSSION.

[MORELOCK]

2 hours ago, SorceressKnight said:

While some of the argument was I am looking at this through 2018 eyes instead of 1980s eyes and demanding they be able to cut a promo for this gimmick

You're quickly glossing over this, but what IS this all about? Why, exactly, does a cocky heel team in 1988 need to cut promos themselves, without a manager, in order to be effective as a cocky heel team in 1988? And why does that color your perspective so much that you wrote their ringwork off without actually bothering to watch their matches?

[southofheavy]

Bottom line is, Leilani Kai and Judy Martin will stomp your narrow ass into the blacktop. Ya feel me? If not, take it up with them and see where it gets ya. 

[SorceressKnight]

14 minutes ago, MORELOCK said:

You're quickly glossing over this, but what IS this all about? Why, exactly, does a cocky heel team in 1988 need to cut promos themselves, without a manager, in order to be effective as a cocky heel team in 1988? And why does that color your perspective so much that you wrote their ringwork off without actually bothering to watch their matches?

First off, I never said a cocky heel team in 1988 needs to cut promos themselves, without a manager, in order to be effective as a cocky heel team in 1988.

What I said was the fact that the Glamour Girls not cutting promos, whether by modern standards or not, puts them far behind the modern day similar teams who at least can hold their own on the mic and make them more complete as performers. Yes, the team's good in the ring, but wrestling isn't just what's in the ring- even the pro- Martin fans will say she did a lot of wrestling in her stalling and her heel tactics, not just her in-ring work. 

[southofheavy]

6 minutes ago, SorceressKnight said:

even the pro- Martin fans will say she did a lot of wrestling in her stalling and her heel tactics, not just her in-ring work. 

Ummm, stalling and heel tactics are in-ring work. 

 

[MORELOCK]

6 minutes ago, SorceressKnight said:

First off, I never said a cocky heel team in 1988 needs to cut promos themselves, without a manager, in order to be effective as a cocky heel team in 1988.

What I said was the fact that the Glamour Girls not cutting promos, whether by modern standards or not, puts them far behind the modern day similar teams who at least can hold their own on the mic and make them more complete as performers. Yes, the team's good in the ring, but wrestling isn't just what's in the ring- even the pro- Martin fans will say she did a lot of wrestling in her stalling and her heel tactics, not just her in-ring work. 

 

12 hours ago, SorceressKnight said:

the Glamour Girls were...just not very good. They had chemistry with the JBA, but they were really bad.

With the Jumping Bomb Angels, they were timeless, but with the Glamour Girls- just looking at the IIconics, Lay-Cool, or the Bella Twins doing similar schtick to them- heck, even the Beautiful People in TNA for the time period of the same "We're so much better looking than everyone else and we're catty mean girls about it" gimmick- and you can see the newer models of that gimmick are just BETTER, in every possible way, by any possible metric you could use to determine "who's better- and it's not even close. 

 

I'm fully aware of what you said - I'm just not sure you are. You're essentially making the argument that Dolph Ziggler is better than Gorgeous George at the cocky heel gimmick because he gets more mic time. And it's as ridiculous as it sounds.

[southofheavy]

Also, maybe the IIconics can outpromo the Glamour Girls, but the GG's would beat the damn breaks off of them. They smoke the IIconics in the ring, flat out. And though they weren't really required to do promos, I'm guessing Leilani Kai and Judy Martin knew how to hype up a match at the Omni or whatever. 

 

[Eivion]

The JBA/GG talk reminds me that I've been looking to check out more non-Japanese women's stuff from the early 90s and before. Does anyone know of anything worth checking out? I know I'm curious about some of the Lucha Libre I've seen running around with Monster Ripper.

[SorceressKnight]

26 minutes ago, MORELOCK said:

I'm fully aware of what you said - I'm just not sure you are. You're essentially making the argument that Dolph Ziggler is better than Gorgeous George at the cocky heel gimmick because he gets more mic time. And it's as ridiculous as it sounds.

Dolph Ziggler and Gorgeous George are playing cocky heels two distinctly different ways. They may be the same basic form, but they're not the same character in the least (and indeed, we probably won't get an effeminate heel like Gorgeous George was ever again since time marches on.) 

The Glamour Girls play the same gimmick as the people I said- and again, I still remain steadfast that for that gimmick, mic work is more essential than the ring work is.  If you can come through on the mic- even if Kai and Martin would destroy them in the ring, they're doing the gimmick better. 

[Niners Fan in CT]

Speaking of the IIconics,  it's early but I've been underwhelmed.  I liked their act better in NXT.   Their first night out was great.  But now they've cut basically the same promo the last three weeks and the ring work is spotty.  I could always blame Road Dogg? 

[southofheavy]

4 minutes ago, SorceressKnight said:

 If you can come through on the mic- even if Kai and Martin would destroy them in the ring, they're doing the gimmick better. 

To paraphrase what I wrote earlier about Michael Hayes, sometimes the name is enough. The Glamour Girls looked like Patty and Thelma. 

Then they beat your ass like Patty and Thelma would. 

They weren't required to do promos. There is little to no evidence saying that they couldn't. I'd err on the side of them being able to. Ain't lookin' to catch a lit Virginia Slim to the eye.

[Wyld Samurai]

You know... wasn't there another badass cocky heel tag team running around in 1988 that needed a manager?

The Midnight something... 

[Brian Fowler]

Bases never get as much credit as they deserve for mind-blowing state of the art work. Because they aren't the ones doing the mind blowing state of the art moves. Nevermind the fact that you can't do that shit without someone taking it, and taking it safely for both you and themselves. Nevermind that they normally have to do the job of filling in the moments between those "MBSOTAM" in order to actually have a match.

Glamour Girls vs The Jumping Bomb Angels matches are great because both teams brought their end to the table and held it up. The real shame is how little WWF women's tag division stuff there is.

[cwoy2j]

3 hours ago, southofheavy said:

To paraphrase what I wrote earlier about Michael Hayes, sometimes the name is enough. The Glamour Girls looked like Patty and Thelma. 

Then they beat your ass like Patty and Thelma would. 

They weren't required to do promos. There is little to no evidence saying that they couldn't. I'd err on the side of them being able to. Ain't lookin' to catch a lit Virginia Slim to the eye.

You think the Glamour Girls were smoking Virginia Slims? Those ladies were smoking Lucky Strikes or Camel No.9s for sure.

[Victator]

5 hours ago, MORELOCK said:

You're quickly glossing over this, but what IS this all about? Why, exactly, does a cocky heel team in 1988 need to cut promos themselves, without a manager, in order to be effective as a cocky heel team in 1988? And why does that color your perspective so much that you wrote their ringwork off without actually bothering to watch their matches?

We know the Midnight Express were not a good team because they had Jim Cornette.

[Victator]

4 hours ago, Wyld Samurai said:

You know... wasn't there another badass cocky heel tag team running around in 1988 that needed a manager?

The Midnight something... 

Damn you...

[MORELOCK]

5 hours ago, SorceressKnight said:

The Glamour Girls play the same gimmick as the people I said- and again, I still remain steadfast that for that gimmick, mic work is more essential than the ring work is.  If you can come through on the mic- even if Kai and Martin would destroy them in the ring, they're doing the gimmick better. 

I don't know if "steadfast" is a good word to describe your position. You said "the newer models of that gimmick are just BETTER, in every possible way, by any possible metric you could use to determine who's better- and it's not even close."

You've whittled it down to exactly one metric, and even that is a shaky one, since the Glamour Girls weren't actually permitted to cut promos because they were women in 1988 WWF, so you don't actually have any information about their mic skills.

[Victator]

Here they are doing promos with Bert Prentice and they do fine when given things to say and do. If they were given regular TV time they would be at the very worst as good as Laycool, the Bellas or the I (I'm not using that second "I") Conics on the mic. Plus being way better in the ring. 

While I am here, I don't even think the Iconics are very good on the mic or in the ring. They seem like the high end of the bikini models Johnny Ace use to hire. Seems like they only got on NXT because the roster was gutted 

[Raziel]

You guys have been debating, meanwhile my brain broke when it was implied that The Beautiful People were better than anyone at anything.

[mattdangerously]

7 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

Speaking of the IIconics,  it's early but I've been underwhelmed.  I liked their act better in NXT.   Their first night out was great.  But now they've cut basically the same promo the last three weeks and the ring work is spotty.  I could always blame Road Dogg? 

 

1 hour ago, Victator said:

While I am here, I don't even think the Iconics are very good on the mic or in the ring. They seem like the high end of the bikini models Johnny Ace use to hire. Seems like they only got on NXT because the roster was gutted 

Kay and Royce have never been any better than "okay-ish" in the ring.  

[Casey]

Women in Saudi Arabia can compete in "any sporting or non-sport event" now, so chances are the women of WWE will be on the card at the Riyadh show in November.

[S.K.o.S.]

I think Twitter fooled me, please ignore this post.

[Curt McGirt]

10 hours ago, Eivion said:

I know I'm curious about some of the Lucha Libre I've seen running around with Monster Ripper.

She had a banger of a cage match with, of all people, Wendi Richter on the '80s Puerto Rico set. 

[Guest Edwin]

 

[Kyuubi]

On 5/3/2018 at 9:55 AM, Victator said:

I don't think it matters provided he does not look giant on the show. I think Eric Young would be perfect as champion, he could do what Enzo was doing except he can wrestle and is not a gross tumor of a human. 

I don't think Cedric Alexander is cutting it. How do you get excited for Cedric Alexander vs Buddy Murphy? 

It is called building. You can't get excited by what is essentially a reboot of a program that has been bogged down by Enzo(who I point out that he did not make 205 Live exciting after his catchphrase ended) or Vince's booking decisions. It is going to take time. Right now, everyone save for Cedric is rebuilding their character and match psychology. Gulak is now more aggressive and technical while retooling his character into something more intimidating. The Lucha House Party are now starting to gain character, Ali is becoming the exciting Gargano/Zayn underdog that HHH loves to use in every program that he is behind. TJP is being his natural asshole self except now he is competent. Hideo is starting to become his own character and etc. You can say that Cedric could be more exciting, but he can't really do that in less than 10 minute matches. And from what I have seen, he does not seem partial to character building at all. His job is to put on the best matches of whatever show he is on and right now, he is batting .500.

Cedric is Seth Rollins before NXT took off. His entire role with the belt is to put on good to decent matches while not having much of a character. Everyone else is supposed to get better and look better while Cedric is simply the flat character who, imo, is the best wrestler on 205 Live if not one of the best in WWE does not change yet. Character wise, he is Finn Balor except a shit ton better in the ring and we are waiting for Samoa Joe to take the title off him(Gulak). So far NXT worked with HHH sticking to a formula that takes time and did not pick up immediately. Not sure if you are a Philadelphia fan, but I say just trust the process. Give it more than two months

As for the suggestion to put guys like Woods,Young, Ricochet, Strong and the Undisputed Era, Dunne, Bate,  Balor, and etc in the 205 Live roster and make the division open for anyone wants to or can compete, yes. I have been wanting this since it became a division again. I want. My complaint with Enzo and even Goldust is that WWE, for some reason, wants to keep guys away from the title that actually would draw attention to the show. Finn Balor, as I have said before, should absolutely be in this division and the shift should not make him less viable for the Universal or WWE Title. Sami Zayn could lose the weight and compete. 

What is going to legitimize 205 Live as the show is to put on the best matches with the best workers, and it hurts it that you have guys who would be a perfect fit being alienated away from it.

[Pete]

WWE has FE'd Bobby Lashley. Huh?