MAY 2018 WRESTLING DISCUSSION.

[Matt D]

13 minutes ago, SorceressKnight said:

Who's moving the goalposts? 

They can't cut a promo. They needed a manager to speak for them. This is not an unfair knock on them- For their gimmick, that is a damning blow.

I'm willing to give you I may have been harsh on Martin from the match you gave me. If you can't accept my part of it, you're the one moving the goalposts there until I say they were the greatest team ever.

 

What WWF female in the 80s needed to speak? Which one could? The gimmick was ironic. For a heel gimmick, that made it better, not worse. They were delusional but try to tell them that and they would kick your ass. Look at the actual heat Martin got by pulling Peterson up at 1. She was doing fine. 

[MORELOCK]

Everyone in late 80's WWF had a manager. Does that mean Savage couldn't cut a promo? Orndorff? Rude? Hennig?

Kind of a weird conclusion to jump to. It was a different time.

["Stone Cold" Steve Austin]

13 minutes ago, MORELOCK said:

Everyone in late 80's WWF had a manager. Does that mean Savage couldn't cut a promo? Orndorff? Rude? Hennig?

Kind of a weird conclusion to jump to. It was a different time.

Just look at all the managers in the ring. Holy shit

 

[The Green Meanie]

8 hours ago, cwoy2j said:

it'd be like the Japanese calling an American wrestler  "Stanley Cup"

I'd be behind that!

[Brian Fowler]

I am really surprised that DVD set has a focus on AJ.

I mean it should, but given the circumstances...

[Wyld Samurai]

Seeing any JBA or GG match makes me realize that the women of today are still very far behind the 8-Ball. Revolution or not.   

[Victator]

4 hours ago, MORELOCK said:

I tend to agree about Cedric, but if you can't get into Murphy I'm not sure you're watching the same show as I am. He's been killing it since the call-up.

I have not seen much of him. But he looked really good in what I saw.

[PetrolCB]

The argument above about the GG needing Jimmy Hart is kind of silly. I get your angle, but Jimmy was a heel manager who latched himself onto winners, like Heenan. If you listen to the commentary from the match I posted, as well as looked at the scope, Hart was managing three champions around the time. Hart Foundation (lost a month prior, aired two weeks before the match I posted but you get the gist), Glamour Girls and Honky Tonk Man. He clearly scouted well. 

[Victator]

Jimmy Hart also gave them and the titled credibility in an era where it would have been a bathroom break.

[Guest Stefanie Without Stefanie]

I think there's a lot to be said about not trying to look at wrestlers through modern eyes, especially since the style in the 1980s for American women was vastly different.

That said, Judy Martin was always a solid, reliable heel. I think there may still be footage of when she and Joyce Grable entered the annual Thanksgiving tag team tournament in Georgia against men's teams where they were actually heels and the crowd bought it.

[Wyld Samurai]

Those girls in the 80s could flat out work. They'd all be Asuka of their peers were today women in the WWE.

[Matt D]

24 minutes ago, Sasha said:

I think there's a lot to be said about not trying to look at wrestlers through modern eyes, especially since the style in the 1980s for American women was vastly different.

That said, Judy Martin was always a solid, reliable heel. I think there may still be footage of when she and Joyce Grable entered the annual Thanksgiving tag team tournament in Georgia against men's teams where they were actually heels and the crowd bought it.

Weirdly, Martin's probably better in 2018 eyes than she was in 1988 eyes. I don't think any fan who paid attention at the time would really give her the credit she deserved in those JBA matches in 1988. It's easier to do it now. Here especially. 

[JonnyLaw]

2 hours ago, The Green Meanie said:

I'd be behind that!

Now that I think about it, I’m surprised the Goon wasn’t named Stanley “the Goon” Cupp.

[Wyld Samurai]

TL Hopper is a total winner, however.

[nate]

I'm gonna regret this, but what did "TL" stand for?

[Hamhock]

Toilet Lid?

Just now, nate said:

I'm gonna regret this, but what did "TL" stand for?

 

[Hamhock]

56 minutes ago, Sasha said:

I think there may still be footage of when she and Joyce Grable entered the annual Thanksgiving tag team tournament in Georgia against men's teams where they were actually heels and the crowd bought it.

I had no idea this happened, and promptly went and found it. Thank you!

 

[SorceressKnight]

4 hours ago, Matt D said:

What WWF female in the 80s needed to speak? Which one could? The gimmick was ironic. For a heel gimmick, that made it better, not worse. They were delusional but try to tell them that and they would kick your ass. Look at the actual heat Martin got by pulling Peterson up at 1. She was doing fine. 

And the fact that they couldn't speak was the reason that it wasn't there.

Yeah, I can accept the gimmick being ironic as perfectly acceptable- but even then, if they could cut a promo, that would have still made it better. And even if other heels had managers in the '80s, most of those wrestlers STILL CUT PROMOS even with their manager. The Glamour Girls didn't. 

If they could have talked as well, maybe they show more that the gimmick was delusional women, but if you tell them that and they'd kick your ass would work. If they don't talk, not only does it not go through as a reason for them being delusional heels, but it's actually kind of sexist through modern eyes (how do you know the GGs are ironic and delusional if they didn't talk about it?)

 

[Matt D]

In part due to the commentary? Which past local promos that we rarely got to see because women were not featured that way at the time, was the only way they were presented. You’re arguing for stuff which doesn’t, wouldn’t, and couldn’t exist basically?

Look, I don't blame you for the in-ring stuff. Conventional Wisdom both then AND now is that the JBA were these special talents that the poor yokels who normally consumed cruddy WWF wrestling and crummy US women's wrestling of the 80s were BLESSED to get to see, and that the GGs were just the stiffs who were int here to work with them. That's decades of wrestling lore and understanding. It's wrong because of how we have come to value other things over the years and you have to watch the footage to see that. I don't fault you for buying into the traditional view.

The rest though? That's pretty out there. You want WWF to have used them or highlight talents that it never would have highlighted, whether they had them or not due to the era and prevailing philosophy. Richter was super over, hugely over, but she still had a mouthpiece and a celebrity hook. 

[PetrolCB]

@SorceressKnight I’m not trying to start a shouting match, honestly. But how were they perceived as “delusional”? They were just a good heel tag team, with a great heel manager and happened to be the champions. I’ve never viewed them as anything more than a solid team who wrestled well and did what they could to retain their titles through technical ability and/or nefarious means. Which is what good heels do. 

[SorceressKnight]

1 hour ago, PetrolCB said:

@SorceressKnight I’m not trying to start a shouting match, honestly. But how were they perceived as “delusional”? They were just a good heel tag team, with a great heel manager and happened to be the champions. I’ve never viewed them as anything more than a solid team who wrestled well and did what they could to retain their titles through technical ability and/or nefarious means. Which is what good heels do. 

@Matt D 's own quote from the top of the page:

Quote

...The gimmick was ironic. For a heel gimmick, that made it better, not worse. They were delusional but try to tell them that and they would kick your ass...

 If they were a solid heel team who wrestled well and did what they could to retain the titles, that's fair enough. 

When Matt D brings in the "they were ironic, delusional heels", then you add a whole different dynamic to that mix. Ignoring most of the more modern teams I mentioned were also ironic, delusional heels in their way (the IIconics are delusional and thought they were the best team in NXT when it was clear they were doofy idiots who kissed canvas all the time, Lay-Cool were delusional and thought they were the best thing going and the sexiest and best workers in the company when they weren't), but you could see it because they could talk. 

And honestly, I'll go into the "Settle down, Hollywood MattDnerico" there by coming out and saying the other problem by saying "the ironic, delusional heels" claim he made: 

While some of the argument was I am looking at this through 2018 eyes instead of 1980s eyes and demanding they be able to cut a promo for this gimmick, you'll notice that the one difference between workers that would be seen through 2018 eyes vs. 1980s eyes I did not say about the Glamour Girls is: I never once mentioned their looks.  This is reasonable, because in the 1980s women's wrestling just couldn't get bonafide sex symbols like they could in the 1990s, 2000s, and 2010s, so their looks really couldn't be held against them for the time period.

This is very important, because if they don't talk and develop their gimmick for this, then it boils down to "the only reason the Glamour Girls gimmick is ironic and they're delusional comes from: They aren't particularly attractive women, but they sell themselves as a pair of beauty queens." 

[Matt D]

Only a moron wouldn't mention the looks. I'm not saying it as a value judgment. There's a level of dissonance that makes it ironic, which thus generates heat. That's a basic fact. They weren't conventionally pretty by even the standards of pro wrestling the time. They made money off of that. More power to them. I still think they're fucking awesome. Do I think Vince should have created a dissonant looks based gimmick in 1986 or whenever? Probably not, but he also shouldn't have done twenty other stereotypical or exploitative things. What the hell are you even arguing here? If you didn't mention their looks then you were being willfully obtuse to try to make some goofy point and to feel better about yourself. If you're watching 80s WWF then you're partaking in this shit. Wallow. Separate. Waggle your finger in judgment. As much as you or I or anyone else might not want it to be true, that's just how things worked back then. What's far worse is stuff like Piggie James vs Laycool in 2010 or whenever, when the announcers were basically selling it as "Well, she is a little fat but they shouldn't tease her about it!" Or the Molly Granny Panties thing which made absolutely no sense because there wasn't even that dissonance, except for on extremely skewed grounds that mainly existed in Vince or Kevin Dunn or someone's head.

My point is that they were kickass in the ring and come off as actually better in-ring, as total package wrestlers, than the JBA in those matches. The JBA's gimmick were "They're Japanese and Vince can't get their names straight." By the metrics you're apparently judging things on, that's not a whole lot better.

[sydneybrown]

8 hours ago, SorceressKnight said:

The fact they needed Jimmy Hart as a manager was a damning blow for a team doing that gimmick

Jimmy Hart gave them credibility.  That he wanted to attach himself to a winner helped them both.  Jumping Bomb Angels were slowly winning the crowd over at Survivor Series and then the Angels dropkicked Hart.  And the fans LOST THEIR SHIT.  The blueprint was there in 1987.  And they thought.....nah....  Shit, they did it again at the clearly best match at Rumble 88.  

[PetrolCB]

I, for one, am happy that we’re in a serious discussion about two women’s tag teams from 30 years ago. Round of applause for the pros and cons of this debate. 

[southofheavy]

When it comes to the Glamour Girls gimmick and them not talking...I dunno, maybe a bad example because he could talk 'em into the building, but Michael Hayes was Purely Sexy on that "Headlining over Krokus at the State Fair" level, nah mean?