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[NXT] APRIL 2018 DISCUSSION


RIPPA

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2 hours ago, OSJ said:

I'm certainly not drinking the VKM is a genius Kool-Aid, just pointing out that in general, despite all his bombast and showmanship, he really understands (or maybe he doesn't understand, but just does out of repetitive behavior) something that good writers (like me) know and utilize: "less is more" when building a character. That's what VKM has been pretty good at, letting  wrestlers be themselves cranked up to eleven. Mick Foley, rather than the sinister western caricature of "Cactus Jack Manson" is the lovable daredevil that we've come to know. Edge and Christian are the endearing goofs capable of behaving as though they're still in high-school. In most cases, it's a matter of Vince staying the hell out of his own way, something that Stephen King as great as he is, has yet to learn to do in a novel. The real stars in the business are going to break out one way or another despite how they're booked. The examples of Hogan, Rock, and Cena are instructive, they were going to be huge no matter what. I don't buy VKM as genius, but more often than not, he's capable of a restraint that is surprising considering his personality.

How many of those people were allowed to be themselves cranked up to 11 out of the gate?  Foley was a cartoonish sadist.  Edge and Christian were vampires.  Austin was The Ringmaster.  The Rock was Rocky Maiavia.  If all of your original ideas suck, and you just look at the talent and say, "just do whatever you want to do," are you a genius or just out of ideas?

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If your original ideas failed and you are willing to change/modify them due to input... isn't that a good thing? Expecting every idea to work coming out of the gate is wishful thinking at best and often delusional. Being able to pivot and change is the better ability. That's not to say VKM hasn't been an archaic  stubborn fucker but he does recognize talent.

Are we really going to downplay legit good ideas and decisions made by VKM by attributing it entirely to the talent? (Or blind chance, or whatever excuse.)

I'm going to bring Braun up again: it wasn't that long ago that people were shitting on Vince for pushing him.

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6 hours ago, nofuture said:

Whoever was creating the babyface women at that time definitely had a weird thing going.  You had a delusional woman who thought she can dance and loved popping bubbles,  the childlike superfan who loved hugging and the Disney cosplaying fairy glitter princess.

IIRC, Emma actually started off as a heel before the crowd turned her.

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47 minutes ago, turk128 said:

If your original ideas failed and you are willing to change/modify them due to input... isn't that a good thing? Expecting every idea to work coming out of the gate is wishful thinking at best and often delusional. Being able to pivot and change is the better ability. That's not to say VKM hasn't been an archaic  stubborn fucker but he does recognize talent.

Are we really going to downplay legit good ideas and decisions made by VKM by attributing it entirely to the talent? (Or blind chance, or whatever excuse.)

I'm going to bring Braun up again: it wasn't that long ago that people were shitting on Vince for pushing him.

Not what I'm saying at all.  Vince is a hell of a promoter and has had great ideas, but genius is a step too far for me.  If his genius only seems to work with people who are so insanely talented they can't miss...that isn't genius.  If he could get someone like Curtis Axel over as a main eventer, I'd call him a genius.  I'm not calling him a genius because he recognized Hulk Hogan was a star, or because Steve Austin and The Rock got over.  Seriously, of all of the top guys in WWF/WWE history how many did he recognize from the beginning?  He clearly recognizes talent, but more often than not the talent has to find their own voice because his ideas have failed.  

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4 hours ago, supremebve said:

Not what I'm saying at all.  Vince is a hell of a promoter and has had great ideas, but genius is a step too far for me.  If his genius only seems to work with people who are so insanely talented they can't miss...that isn't genius.  If he could get someone like Curtis Axel over as a main eventer, I'd call him a genius.  I'm not calling him a genius because he recognized Hulk Hogan was a star, or because Steve Austin and The Rock got over.  Seriously, of all of the top guys in WWF/WWE history how many did he recognize from the beginning?  He clearly recognizes talent, but more often than not the talent has to find their own voice because his ideas have failed.  

Don't remember saying genius anywhere... but if you insist, yes, he's in genius in that he promoted his brand to this level despite obvious flaws.

Off the top of my head, the  home grown main eventers: Undertaker, HBK, and Cena. Cena is an especially great example because, well, come-on... from the Prototype to a rapper gimmick that he made work. He was given the opportunity and worked his ass off to get to the top and when you get down to it, isn't this the way it should be done? If the argument is that talented people will get over no matter what, then nobody is a 'genius' in the wrestling world.

I'm not sure what constitutes failure and a talent's evolving character; like isn't the natural process trying something to see if it works and if it doesn't, changing/tweaking it to work. Pro wrestling is an art form not a science.

VKM gave these talents opportunities to try new things when the initial ideas didn't work. That's what I want from a promoter and that's whats common in all of the superstars that have gotten over in WWE.

And lets not kid ourselves, the only place Curtis Axel can main event is a bingo hall. The promoter that would want Curtis to main event is the one with serious cognitive issues.

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Some quick thoughts on the Bel Air show last night:

Spoiler

I've been to I think three of the last four shows in Bel Air, and boy does the crowd seem to be getting progressively smaller and less interested.  Chalk a lot of that up to NXT's institutional turnover (the first show in fall 2016 with the Nakamura/Asuka/Joe/Aries/Roode/AOP brigade was PACKED), but "NXT-as-a-brand" is looking like a hard sell in a smaller market.

We rolled in late for the first match but Oney and the Profits seemed like a fun pairing against the Forgotten Sons crew.

Lacey Evans (teaming with Bianca Bel Air) knocking out Candice (paired with Kairi) with a forearm counter to a dive for a clean pin felt like some bad old days main roster shit, given how the bigger heels just housed the smaller faces.  Really disappointed with how little it felt like Candice and Kairi got.

EC3 was Bobby Roode levels of designed to be hated but loved by the crowd en route to sending off No Way Jose, who still feels like a one note character who hasn't gotten any better (but so did Elias).  Basically a nothing match.

Ciampa vs Ohno (yeah, really) was one of my favorite matches I've ever seen live.  Everything I want in a badass slugfest, and Ciampa is up there in best heel in the world territory.  It was legitimately depressing how little the crowd cared about Ohno until things got hot though.

Ricochet vs Dream (again, seriously) was similarly great.  Insane charisma and chemistry between the two.  My first time seeing Ricochet live, and he is every bit as electric as you'd think.  The crowd was way into Dream though.  Both guys are clearly studs at any level anywhere in the world.

Shayna had a good defense in a swan song title shot for Nikki, with the Superstar Shake-Up results obviously sucking the air out a bit.  The main event rematch of Almas and Black suffered from the same thing (and a surprisingly quick finish), but it was still awesome seeing both guys working together up close.

Sandwiched in between the championship bouts was a Gargano appearance leading to a pull-apart brawl with Ciampa, which just came off as a token offering more than anything.

 

 

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Johnstown show tonight was really fun. Different pairings than Bel Air the previous night. MOTN may have been the Street Profits and Cutler/Blake. Just awesome stuff from both sides. Only thing strange was a Kairi/Nikki vs. Shayna/Lacey tag in which we all think Lacey botched the ending and forgot to kick out of a Kairi flying clothesline as the match ended abruptly and flat. Lacey sold her knee and punched the ring apron as she left so there's a small chance she may have gotten hurt but there was no indication from Referee Jessika of any injury.

Norman Smiley, Steve Corino, Shawn Michaels and Jeremy Borash were all there helping run things.

Also met a good bit of the crew afterwards, all of whom were super cool. Was especially stoked to meet Baszler, Ricochet and ONEY(told him we needed more press conferences..he said they're in the works. Ha). Had EC3 and Nikki laughing as I got pictures with them. Results and some pics are spoiled:

Spoiler
1. No Way Jose pinned Chad Lail after the Fastball Punch
 
2. Candice Lerae pinned Bianca Belair after a Springboard Moonsault off the 2nd Rope
 
3. EC3 pinned Kassius Ohno after a variation of Brock Lesnar's F5. Before the match, EC3 cut a heel promo calling Johnstown a dump and saying he could beat Ben Roethlisberger and Sidney Crosby. After the match, Ohno did the self-reflecting bit, sitting in the ring for a long time contemplating things and then sitting once again at the entrance ramp before tapping his heart and leaving. Not sure where they're going with that one.
 
4. Street Profits defeated The Forgotten Sons via pinfall in what might have been the Match Of The Night. LOTS of near-falls which could have easily been finishes and the crowd ate them up more and more with each one.
 
Intermission
 
5. Kairi Sane and Nikki Cross defeated NXT Women's Champion Shayna Baszler and Lacey Evans. Not sure what happened at the end but we likely got a botched finish as Kairi Sane clotheslined Lacey Evans from the top-rope and she never kicked out. Referee Jessika Carr counted the pin and the crowd didn't know how to react. Very abrupt finish. Evans seemed upset afterwards selling her knee and pounding the ring apron but we never got any indication there was an injury or anything like that.
 
6. Tommaso Ciampa defeated Oney Lorcan via pinfall after a Knee Strike. Johnny Gargano's music played before the match only for Ciampa to walk out instead, drawing huge heat. Ciampa then issued an open challenge after cutting a lengthy promo which Lorcan accepted. After the match, Ciampa continued the assault on Lorcan until Johnny Gargano ran out from the crowd for the save, wearing a neck brace. They did a pull-apart brawl with the locker-room emptying to intervene.
 
7. NXT Champion Aleister Black & Ricochet defeated Andrade Cien Almas(w/Zelina Vega) & Velveteen Dream via pinfall after Black hit the Black Mass on Almas. 
 
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@Peck, how early did you get there to meet the wrestlers?  I might give that a shot next time for the Bel Air show.  Cool to know that they were all nice.

The Bel Air show as pretty fun.  My friends got front row, and the one is a huge Aleister fan so she was losing her mind.  Bleacher seats still had a good view though.  @Cyanide is right about the crowd being small, but to me it seemed like it had a little more than the last show.   But it was refreshing not hearing most of the smarky bullshit you normally hear from wrestling crowds.  They booed and cheered for the intended stuff and they to me seemed rather into it for things that mattered.  I do think a smaller, more intimate setting would be ideal as the place is too big for a Bel Air show.

As for the show itself they were generally good matches and I like the personal touch of some of the heels doing videos talking about the show.  Ohno/Ciampa was a wonderful and would have easily been MOTN.  But that honor hands down goes to Dream/Ricochet.  I was fortunate to see Black/Dream months before their Takeover match and knew it would be special.  And much like that I can safely say Dream/Ricochet will be a fantastic Takeover match that you all will love.

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Regarding Nikki, I don't think she needs Sanity and Sanity doesn't need her. Dain and Nikki are the standouts from that group. Nikki now gets to continue to forge her own path while Dain does the same. They both rise at the same time and then you can put them back together in some fashion, like Nikki makes a surprise debut by beating the shit out of whoever Dain is taking on in a big match.

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22 minutes ago, NikoBaltimore said:

@Peck, how early did you get there to meet the wrestlers?  I might give that a shot next time for the Bel Air show.  Cool to know that they were all nice.

It was actually after the event. Before the event, their bus pulls in and they all go straight in to the building. WWE's security guy told us they are on a pretty strict timeline since they all travel together. He said after the event some will come over and meet the fans as they board the bus and we all thought that was just security-speak but pretty much all of them did with the exception of some heels(Ciampa, Almas/Vega, Velveteen.. gotta respect kayfabe.. ha) and the Producers, etc.(People asked HBK to come over, he got straight on bus)

I think it varies by venue. I know when they run Pittsburgh there is no access to where the bus is. Johnstown is such a small building that they basically had to park the bus right by the public sidewalk.

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48 minutes ago, Peck said:

It was actually after the event. Before the event, their bus pulls in and they all go straight in to the building. WWE's security guy told us they are on a pretty strict timeline since they all travel together. He said after the event some will come over and meet the fans as they board the bus and we all thought that was just security-speak but pretty much all of them did with the exception of some heels(Ciampa, Almas/Vega, Velveteen.. gotta respect kayfabe.. ha) and the Producers, etc.(People asked HBK to come over, he got straight on bus)

I think it varies by venue. I know when they run Pittsburgh there is no access to where the bus is. Johnstown is such a small building that they basically had to park the bus right by the public sidewalk.

When they first did Bel Air the bus was on the side.  So after the show you could see the crew board the bus and we'd be able to hang nearby.  People would try and get whoever to come up but the only one that did was Jose.  And he was super nice so it capped off a great night of wrestling.  Since then they've had it behind the building and they go out from a back exit.  And with security telling fans they can't hang around that takes out the chances of seeing them (doesn't help the show ends at 10)  I get they have tight schedules but I sure do miss that.

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3 hours ago, NikoBaltimore said:

When they first did Bel Air the bus was on the side.  So after the show you could see the crew board the bus and we'd be able to hang nearby.  People would try and get whoever to come up but the only one that did was Jose.  And he was super nice so it capped off a great night of wrestling.  Since then they've had it behind the building and they go out from a back exit.  And with security telling fans they can't hang around that takes out the chances of seeing them (doesn't help the show ends at 10)  I get they have tight schedules but I sure do miss that.

Borash was filming a ton of the wrestler/fan interactions in the parking lot so I’m curious to see what will come of that, if anything. This show was at 5:00 and ended around 7:30 so it was still daylight. May have helped things.

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It is also possible that they film the interactions the best they can to protect themselves from litigation

That could be the cynic in me but we already know of one troubled person who stalks Full Sail

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Fair point. Never even considered that. Although I don’t think I’ve ever seen that before at any other WWE events I’ve ever attended. Then again, with that NXT stalker back in the news again it makes sense.

I will say Borash was asking some of the talent to take their time and hold up a few seconds when autographing programs, etc. so he could capture the signing itself.

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2 hours ago, RIPPA said:

It is also possible that they film the interactions the best they can to protect themselves from litigation

That could be the cynic in me but we already know of one troubled person who stalks Full Sail

"Troubled person" is far too nice a way of saying "batshit insane and dangerous", if we're talking about the same guy and I'm sure that we are.

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