Bryan Danielson vs Kenta Kobashi

[francescofuoco1998]

 

I edited the topic and the poll.

I decided to left only Kenta Kobashi vs Bryan Danielson because is the most interesting comparison.

The criterion is the ability as an in ring performer, that includes workrate, in ring psychology, storytelling, selling, cleaning in the execution of the moves, quality of matches, and other aspects of in ring ability.

You should try to vote not your favourite wrestlers, but you should vote the wrestler that you think is a better in ring performer. 

In few words you should try to be as objective as possible. 

However if you think that the wrestlers are great in ring performers in the same way, and it's impossible to choose who is better than the other, you could vote the option number 3, please.

 

Then if can't judge Danielson and/or Kobashi as in ring performers (because you didn't watch enough matches) you could vote the option number 4, please.

I added this option to not penalize Kobashi, because I think that there could be some people that watched few matches, maybe some never watched any of his matches.

Same thing can be applied to Danielson, if you don't know his extre WWE stint.

If it's possible should be great if you will write your thoughts about the comparison.

 

 

Thank you very much.

[twiztor]

btw don't tell me which option i "have to choose"

[Niners Fan in CT]

I know there's not currently a monthly discussion thread but when a new one is created you probably have a better chance of getting answers to your questions there.  A lot of people miss these types of threads and/or are going to look at all the poll options and think "this is too much work.."  

If you posted something in the monthly discussion like "Hey,  who do you think was a better worker,   Bret or Benoit?"  you'd probably get quite a few replies.   Then after that discussion ran its course maybe follow up with a different question. 

[francescofuoco1998]

9 hours ago, twiztor said:

btw don't tell me which option i "have to choose"

In fact I wrote "you should choose": it's a suggestion and an advice, not a command.

[The Natural]

Hardest choice for me was between Daniel Bryan and Kenta Kobashi as they fight it out for numero uno spot. Love both of them but went with Kenta Kobashi in the end.

Easiest choice, Bret over Benoit and that was before, you know.

[NikoBaltimore]

4 hours ago, francescofuoco1998 said:

In fact I wrote "you should choose": it's a suggestion and an advice, not a command.

There's much better ways to get that across.  I'm not a wordsmith or anything, but maybe instead of "you have to choose" instead use "please choose"  And for the last option just say haven't seen either/or's body of work, nothing extra is needed.  I get what you're saying, but even if you didn't mean it to be it sounds forceful and makes me not care to vote.  A lot of us are not exactly thin-skinned folks here, but a nicer tone goes a long way.

As it is the only one I can really vote on is Bret/Benoit, the others have a choice where I didn't see their body of work much.  But I'd rather not vote since I can't be unbiased in that vote (will forever be anti-Benoit no matter how great he was)

[francescofuoco1998]

1 hour ago, NikoBaltimore said:

There's much better ways to get that across.  I'm not a wordsmith or anything, but maybe instead of "you have to choose" instead use "please choose"  And for the last option just say haven't seen either/or's body of work, nothing extra is needed.  I get what you're saying, but even if you didn't mean it to be it sounds forceful and makes me not care to vote.  A lot of us are not exactly thin-skinned folks here, but a nicer tone goes a long way.

As it is the only one I can really vote on is Bret/Benoit, the others have a choice where I didn't see their body of work much.  But I'd rather not vote since I can't be unbiased in that vote (will forever be anti-Benoit no matter how great he was)

The problem is that English is not my first language. I tried to be as understandable as possible. 

[NikoBaltimore]

13 minutes ago, francescofuoco1998 said:

The problem is that English is not my first language. I tried to be as understandable as possible. 

Sorry, I didn't know that.  In that case I'll be more forgiving of it next time.

[twiztor]

7 hours ago, francescofuoco1998 said:

In fact I wrote "you should choose": it's a suggestion and an advice, not a command.

if you didn't watch Panther's and Guerrero's main matches in all promotions you have to choose this option

not in the poll options themselves, you didn't.  Please take advice from @NikoBaltimore and next time you make the polls end with "please choose this option" or something similar.

do you have a larger tournament bracket drawn up or something? random one-on-one pairings can be a fun aside, but dropping a bunch of polls at once that don't lead to anything will just result in diminishing results. i agree with what @Niners Fan in CT said above, you will generate more debate and conversation in a main monthly thread.

[francescofuoco1998]

1 hour ago, twiztor said:

 

not in the poll options themselves, you didn't.  Please take advice from @NikoBaltimore and next time you make the polls end with "please choose this option" or something similar.

do you have a larger tournament bracket drawn up or something? random one-on-one pairings can be a fun aside, but dropping a bunch of polls at once that don't lead to anything will just result in diminishing results. i agree with what @Niners Fan in CT said above, you will generate more debate and conversation in a main monthly thread.

Yes, my mistake.

 

Maybe, I'm thinking to edit the topic. I'm seriously thinking to edit the poll. I think that the main problem is the fact that I listed a lot of comparisons.

However, considering the fact that Danielson vs Kobashi is the only balanced comparison, I will eliminate the other 5 comparisons and I will keep only it.

Probably this is also the most interesting, considering that there are a lot of aspects that can be analyzed.

[NikoBaltimore]

2 hours ago, francescofuoco1998 said:

Yes, my mistake.

Maybe, I'm thinking to edit the topic. I'm seriously thinking to edit the poll. I think that the main problem is the fact that I listed a lot of comparisons.

However, considering the fact that Danielson vs Kobashi is the only balanced comparison, I will eliminate the other 5 comparisons and I will keep only it.

Probably this is also the most interesting, considering that there are a lot of aspects that can be analyzed.

If it helps any the poll's much better after being reworked.

[Web Conn]

I've seen two Kenta vs Misawa matches (The ONE and a match from 7/18/06 cuz thats my birthday) and Kenta vs Joe and that is all the Kenta Kobashi I have seen. I'm not an All Japan guy, thats not a valid excuse but hey it's the truth.

[NikoBaltimore]

I haven't seen much Kobashi but have seen a ton of Danielson.  All I can say is with how beloved his is I wouldn't be the least bit mad if people say he's better than Danielson.  Heck, from the sounds of it I bet even Bryan would say that.

[francescofuoco1998]

20 minutes ago, NikoBaltimore said:

I haven't seen much Kobashi but have seen a ton of Danielson.  All I can say is with how beloved his is I wouldn't be the least bit mad if people say he's better than Danielson.  Heck, from the sounds of it I bet even Bryan would say that.

NikoBaltimore, can you explain better what you said, please?

Being Italian, I didn't undestand well what you said. It's my fault, not yours.

[NikoBaltimore]

4 minutes ago, francescofuoco1998 said:

NikoBaltimore, can you explain better what you said, please?

Being Italian, I didn't undestand well what you said. It's my fault, not yours.

Sure.

I haven't seen enough Kobashi so I voted the last option.  But from what I heard I'm not surprised that many find him better than Bryan.

[francescofuoco1998]

10 minutes ago, NikoBaltimore said:

Sure.

I haven't seen enough Kobashi so I voted the last option.  But from what I heard I'm not surprised that many find him better than Bryan.

At the moment the two are very close, Kobashi is winning with 2 votes more. However it's not a great gap and I think they will remain pretty close until the end of the poll.

 

 

However, I am doing a lot of polls, not only here, but also on other forums, for example on Pro wrestling only and Wrestlingclassics.

 

I noted that ProWrestling Only users are so similar to DVD forum users. I think that many PWO users are also here, right?

In both forums  PWO and DVD), for example, in an hypotecal comparison between Kurt Angle and Toshiaki Kawada, the second would be the undispute winner.

While, on Wrestlinclassics, the results of the polls are so much different. In a poll Angle squashed Kawada; Benoit is so close to Misawa, Shawn Michaels defeated Danielson and also Kobashi. I think that Misawa and Bret Hart would finish very close.

[francescofuoco1998]

However, in my opinion, the right Nasser of the comparison is a draw.

Kobashi, maybe, delivered better matches at his peak, however, his main challengers were better worker than Danielson's main challengers (for sure Misawa and Kawada were better performers than KENTA, McGuinness, Low Ki, Aries and Morishima.

Danielson, in opposite, had probably better matches with more wrestlers than Kobashi and he was for sure more versatil and he was great in more styles, not only in technical wrestling, but also with the striking, high flying. Maybe many people don't know, but he was able to work with the old WOS English style in the match with McGuinness of Unfield.

For sure he was more complete in the ring than wrestlers like Benoit, Styles. 

I am rewatching every Danielson's matches, in particular those less known, and even in those matches he was excellent. Today I watched Aries vs Danielson (ROH TV 4/4/2009) and Danielson vs Tyler Black (ROH 25/4/2009). Although the two matches were very close from a timing standpoint because they were both in the same month, in reality the matches were very different, the psycology of matches was different, Danielson worked also different styles.

[John E. Dynamite]

I've always enjoyed Kobashi the least of the Four Corners of Heaven. Some of it is the fact that I just love the other three so much, and some of it is that he's way too big and musclebound to make me believe that he's a scrappy underdog type, but it's mainly that he's a perfect example of an early main-event "moves" guy and I've never dug that. Once he started winning singles matches his moveset became big, messy and distracting. Proto-Meltzerism? It's the same beef I have with Manami Toyota or to a lesser extent Hayabusa.

It should be noted I prefer NOAH champ Kobashi to orange Kobashi, even if I may not prefer the matches.

[francescofuoco1998]

On 1/4/2018 at 1:41 AM, John E. Dynamite said:

I've always enjoyed Kobashi the least of the Four Corners of Heaven. Some of it is the fact that I just love the other three so much, and some of it is that he's way too big and musclebound to make me believe that he's a scrappy underdog type, but it's mainly that he's a perfect example of an early main-event "moves" guy and I've never dug that. Once he started winning singles matches his moveset became big, messy and distracting. Proto-Meltzerism? It's the same beef I have with Manami Toyota or to a lesser extent Hayabusa.

It should be noted I prefer NOAH champ Kobashi to orange Kobashi, even if I may not prefer the matches.

What do you think about Danielson?

[John E. Dynamite]

1 hour ago, francescofuoco1998 said:

What do you think about Danielson?

That he's the better worker and character. His ability to be the all-time North American indie workrate God AND translate that into being the most over face since Austin puts him in incredibly rarefied air and when all is said and done he'll have to be considered in any logical Greatest of All Time conversation. There are others who I consider historically greater, like Flair. There are those I consider better workers, like Kawada. There are those I'm more personally invested in like, I dunno, Mick Foley or Akira Hokuto or Dusty Rhodes. We'll see what his return run does for his legacy, but as far as I'm concerned it's already set and it's near the top.

[Jiji]

I agree with everything @John E. Dynamite said in those two posts but still had to go with Kobashi because of his role in so many timeless matches. Bryan Danielson is one of my favourite wrestlers of any generation but best matches do not touch Kobashi's and the gap is so wide that I can't put Danielson's versatility, generally smarter/less taxing styles over Kobashi's. Kobashi was the main culprit in the arms race that engulfed King's Road style in the mid '90s and ultimately led to the style's breaking point. Even in saying that, you can't take away his work from '90-'95. He's probably got five matches considerably better than Danielson's best in my opinion. The Can-Am All Asia tag from '92, the '95 June tag, the May '94 Demon Army tag, the July '93 Hansen match, so many of the Jumbo multi-man tags, Williams murdering him in '94... Yeah, there are a lot of tags in that list but he was a major player in all of them and by no means was a passenger. His selling in the 6/9/95 tag match is some of the best ever and he brought the fire and emotion like only he could. Maybe I value top end stuff too much but Kobashi's got such a crazy wealth of matches at or near the 5 star level that I don't remember Danielson's WWE or ROH work reaching. Maybe I need to go back and rewatch the Nigel matches (I dunno...), the KENTA match from '06, or some of the matches against Aries or Joe.

[francescofuoco1998]

8 hours ago, Oyaji said:

I agree with everything @John E. Dynamite said in those two posts but still had to go with Kobashi because of his role in so many timeless matches. Bryan Danielson is one of my favourite wrestlers of any generation but best matches do not touch Kobashi's and the gap is so wide that I can't put Danielson's versatility, generally smarter/less taxing styles over Kobashi's. Kobashi was the main culprit in the arms race that engulfed King's Road style in the mid '90s and ultimately led to the style's breaking point. Even in saying that, you can't take away his work from '90-'95. He's probably got five matches considerably better than Danielson's best in my opinion. The Can-Am All Asia tag from '92, the '95 June tag, the May '94 Demon Army tag, the July '93 Hansen match, so many of the Jumbo multi-man tags, Williams murdering him in '94... Yeah, there are a lot of tags in that list but he was a major player in all of them and by no means was a passenger. His selling in the 6/9/95 tag match is some of the best ever and he brought the fire and emotion like only he could. Maybe I value top end stuff too much but Kobashi's got such a crazy wealth of matches at or near the 5 star level that I don't remember Danielson's WWE or ROH work reaching. Maybe I need to go back and rewatch the Nigel matches (I dunno...), the KENTA match from '06, or some of the matches against Aries or Joe.

I would like to know your opinion about what this user wrote in an other forum, in Italy, about the comparison between Danielson and the AJPW pillars.

<<He said that Danielson's best matches were not on AJPW pillars' best matches also because of the meticulous booking of Giant Baba, in fact the best matches, like Misawa vs Kawada  of 1994, are the result of a prior history, althought they were phenomenal talent. If there was not the meticulous booking of Baba, althought they would have delivered great matches, probably they would not have been on the same level. While Danielson had to work more individually, without a great booking and write behind his back, and he also could study his matches like the AJPW pillars because he was not in a promotion in which there was a steady roster: for example his match against KENTA, althought was fantastic, it could never have been on Misawa vs Kawada level becuase there was not a great history behind, and also because they met themselves few times in the past, so they could not have the same chemistry of Misawa and Kawada or Kobashi and Misawa or Kobashi and Hansen.>>

The right question would be: If Danielson would have been in AJPW during the 90s, would he have delivered matches on the level of Misawa vs Kawada and Misawa vs Kobashi? I think that with the right booking the answer is yes. 

[OSJ]

Y'all be daft, that's the only thing that explains this. Kobashi makes me want to rip my eyeballs out with his goofy offense and bizarre selling. Yes, he's been in a ton of great matches, usually with guys that were able to make him control himself to some extent. Left to his own devices, he is as unbelievable and annoying to watch as Shawn Michaels and from me, that's a level of venom that I don't frequently discharge as I think Michaels is perhaps the most overrated performer of my lifetime. Danielson can get **** out of a broom anytime he wants to. Kobashi can be in the ring with one of the best in the world and still seem like a goof.

[francescofuoco1998]

3 hours ago, OSJ said:

Y'all be daft, that's the only thing that explains this. Kobashi makes me want to rip my eyeballs out with his goofy offense and bizarre selling. Yes, he's been in a ton of great matches, usually with guys that were able to make him control himself to some extent. Left to his own devices, he is as unbelievable and annoying to watch as Shawn Michaels and from me, that's a level of venom that I don't frequently discharge as I think Michaels is perhaps the most overrated performer of my lifetime. Danielson can get **** out of a broom anytime he wants to. Kobashi can be in the ring with one of the best in the world and still seem like a goof.

Probably what magnified Shawn Michaels' aura was the fact that many he was delivered great matches almost always and only at Wrestlemania. For example in 2009 he had only a great match and it was against Taker, but the rest of the year we rememeber nothing. 

So, in people's mind, for example Michaels' 2009 is fantastic, althought, in reality, he isn't.

About Kobashi, next months I am projecting to review as many matches as possible, and I'd like to rank the best workers for every year. When I will finish my project I'd like to know your opinion about it.

[OSJ]

55 minutes ago, francescofuoco1998 said:

Probably what magnified Shawn Michaels' aura was the fact that many he was delivered great matches almost always and only at Wrestlemania. For example in 2009 he had only a great match and it was against Taker, but the rest of the year we rememeber nothing. 

So, in people's mind, for example Michaels' 2009 is fantastic, althought, in reality, he isn't.

About Kobashi, next months I am projecting to review as many matches as possible, and I'd like to rank the best workers for every year. When I will finish my project I'd like to know your opinion about it.

A very profound observation my friend! I've always said when people are doing the Michaels/Hart thing that Bret put on fantastic wrestling matches and Shawn put on spectacles. That he would usually pull out a spectacle at Wrestlemania while doing nothing of note the rest of the year does not, in my mind make him a great. Best worker of the year is going to be awfully hard to determine fairly considering that we don't have the benefit of the day in day out house shows to evaluate.  One of the things I always admired about Flair is that despite the criticism I've leveled at him for "Flair-by-the-numbers", the fact remains that whether it was 300 people or 30,000 people he gave them the same show. That's also true of Arn Anderson and a very few others; it's really easy to mentally take the night off when it's a small crowd in some backwater town or a meaningless house show the night before a TV taping. The true greats are the ones that gave 100% no matter what the circumstances.