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General thoughts about the lucha set


Phil Schneider
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Reading comments, I get the feeling that a lot of this stuff is heavily up to interpretation. We're all over the place on everything but the no brainers.

I think a lot of that has to do with the quantity of matches at similar quality levels. For example, when I see tim's rankings I will see matches that he and I have maybe 5 or 6 spaces apart from one another and while I disagree with his placement of said match it rarely seems too crazy to me because I don't think the quality is that far off.

 

As I approach the end of the set I'm starting to realize how hard it will be to rank this as opposed to the AWA set which felt so open and shut to me. I have my overall rankings divided into tiers and at this point the matches in each individual tier could go in any direction. To give you an idea of what I mean, my top tier is made up of the three matches that feel like number 1 contenders, the second tier is made up of 11 matches, the third tier is made up of another 11 matches, the fourth is made up of 10 matches and it continues in similar fashion after that. Of course that's just my personal experience and other viewers may see this very differently.

 

Now with all of that said, not a lot of people have made it past 1984 yet so there are still a lot of matches that have not yet developed a consensus. If you look at the thread for a match like Siglo XX vs Cien Caras you can see tim loved it, Curt hated it, and I felt like I landed right in the middle. There's still a possibility that a consensus may form around a match like that with either tim or Curt turning into an outlier.

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  • 2 weeks later...
DISC 7 RANKINGS

 

1. El Hijo del Santo vs. Negro Casas (Mask vs. Hair) (7/18/87)

2. Arandu vs. Guerrero Negro (Hair vs. Hair) (1988)

3. Blue Panther/Sergio El Hermosa v. Super Astro/Solar (10/17/87)

4. Mogur vs. As Charro (Mask vs. Mask) (9/18/87)

5. El Hijo Del Santo vs. Espanto Jr. (4/10/88)

6. Atlantis vs. Emilio Charles Jr. (8/12/88)

7. El Dandy, Magico y Super Astro vs. Gran Cochise, Javier Cruz y Americo Rocca (11/11/87)

8. Pirata Morgan, Hombre Bala y Verdugo vs. Atlantis, Angel Azteca y Ringo Mendoza (3/88)

9. Kung Fu v. Javier Cruz (3/88)

10. Kato Kung Lee vs. Kung Fu (Mask vs. Hair) (4/29/88)

11. Cien Caras vs. Siglo XX (4/10/87)

 

Yeah, speaking of disparate feelings about matches. I really need to go back and watch Cien/Siglo again cause it can't be below #10, but based on my review I'm sticking it there. When a Santito showcase is the fifth match down you know you're standing in some tall cotton. 

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disk 9

 

1. MS-1 y Maskare vs. El Dandy y El Satanico, (8/11/89)1.

2. Atlantis y Satanico vs. MS-1 y Tierra Viento y Fuego (9/22/89)

3. Super Astro, Atlantis y El Faraón vs. Fuerza Guerrera, Blue Panther y Emilio Charles (8/18/89)

4. Atlantis, Mascara Sagrada y Super Astro vs. Hombre Bala, Pirata Morgan y Verdugo) (September 1989)

5. Jerry Estrada vs. Javier Cruz (10/20/89)

6. El Dandy, Apolo Dantes y Eddy Guerrero vs. Emilio Charles Jr., Pirata Morgan y Ary Romero (9/29/89)

7. Blue Panther, Emilio Charles Jr. y Hombre Bala vs. Blue Demon, Javier Cruz y Hombre Sin Nombre (8/4/89)

8. Blue Demon Jr., Super Astro y Mascara Sagrada vs. El Supremo, Espectro Jr. y Blue Panther (10/6/89)

9. All Star, El Dandy y El Texano vs. Espectro Jr., Jerry Estrada y Rocky Star (10/13/89)    
10. Chavo Guerrero, Cien Caras y Mascara Ano Dos Mil vs. Lizmark, El Satanico y Rayo De Jalisco Jr. (10/20/89)

11. Jerry Estrada, Ary Romero y Rick Patterson vs. Javier Cruz, Eddy Guerrero y El Dandy (10/6/89)
 

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DISK TEN

 

1. Pirata Morgan vs. Brazo De Oro (11/17/89)

2. El Dandy vs. Emilio Charles Jr. (12/1/89)

3. El Brazo, Brazo Del Oro y Brazo Del Plata vs. Hombre Bala, Pirata Morgan y El Verdugo (11/10/89)

4. El Brazo, Brazo Del Oro y Brazo Del Plata vs. Hombre Bala, Pirata Morgan y El Verdugo (10/27/89)
5. El Brazo y Brazo De Plata vs. Hombre Bala, El Verdugo (11/17/89)
6. Emilio Charles Jr., MS-1 y Tierra, Viento y Fuego vs. Atlantis, El Dandy y Mascara Sagrada, (11/24/89)

7. Fuerza Guerrera vs. El Hijo Del Santo vs. All Star (12/8/89)

8. Fuerza Guerrera y Rocky Star vs. All Star y El Hijo Del Santo + Fuerza Guerrera vs. Rocky Star (12/1/89)

9. Pirata Morgan vs. Ken Timbs (12/8/89)

 

Well that's that.  Great set overall though it really goes out with a whimper.  Not that the last two disks are bad, just definitely a lot weaker than what came before.  But I suppose that's to be expected with the increased footage, more everything means you don't just get the best ofs.

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  • 2 weeks later...
1. Mogur vs. Mascara Ano 2000 (Mask vs. Mask) (9/23/88)

2. Javier Cruz vs. Hombre Bala (Hair vs. Hair) (6/30/89)

3. Sangre Chicana vs. Satanico (5/26/89)

4. Emilio Charles vs. El Dandy (Hair v. Hair) (7/28/89)

5. Pirata Morgan vs. El Dandy (Hair vs. Hair) (9/23/88)


6. Super Halcon, Satanico y Masakre vs. El Texano, Lizmark y Rayo De Jalisco Jr. (3/17/89)



7. Popitekus, Angel Azteca y Steve Nelson vs. Emilio Charles Jr., Gran Markus Jr. y Masakre (6/9/89)



8. Emilio Charles, Fabuloso Blondy y Pirata Morgan vs. El Dandy, Atlantis & El Faraón (7/21/89)


9. Blue Demon, Blue Demon Jr. y Ringo Mendoza vs. Emilio Charles Jr., Pirata Morgan y Satanico (11/25/88)

10. Angel Azteca, Atlantis y Blue Demon Jr. vs. El Dandy, Super Muneco y El Texano (3/24/89)

11. Atlantis, El Dandy y Popitekus vs. Gran Markus Jr., Pirata Morgan y Ulises (5/26/89)

 

This disc is just plain loaded. I mean Pirata Morgan spitting blood mist is NUMBER FIVE, come on. More cool discoveries here with Texano, Popitekus, Hombre Bala and Masakre stepping it up a notch, and again another dark-horse match to come out on top of the pack. I get the feeling I am greatly underestimating Satanico/Chicana and that might bite me in the ass later.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I gotta say the worst part about watching all these matches is listening to the commentators talk about matches that occured previously (presumably on television) that we'll most likely never get to see on video. Do I need to hear about the half hour technical masterpiece Americo Rocca & Talisman had the week before Super Astro vs Satanico? No. No, I don't.

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I've been giving some matches from this set a second viewing over the last week in order to put together better rankings and as you'd expect some matches have grown in esteem and some have fallen.

 

Here are some that are moving up my ballot:

 

Sangre Chicana vs Perro Aguayo - This was already a top 10 match but it felt a bit more special the second time.

 

Infernales vs Faraon & Fiera - third time watching this and while the VQ is an issue this is just too brutal for me to ignore. This is looking like a top 20 and possibly a top 15 match for me.

 

8/18/89 trios - Fuck, this is such a fun trios match and it's satisfying in every way. This could even sneak into my top 10 (which is half trios matches at the moment).

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  • 3 weeks later...
DISC 9 RANKINGS:
 
1. Atlantis y Satanico vs. MS-1 y Tierra Viento y Fuego (Hair/Mask vs. Hair/Mask) (9/22/89)
2. Super Astro, Atlantis y El Faraón vs. Fuerza Guerrera, Blue Panther y Emilio Charles (8/18/89)
3. MS-1 y Maskare vs. El Dandy y El Satanico, (8/11/89)
4. Blue Panther, Emilio Charles Jr. y Hombre Bala vs. Blue Demon, Javier Cruz y Hombre Sin Nombre (8/4/89)
5. Atlantis, Mascara Sagrada y Super Astro vs. Hombre Bala, Pirata Morgan y Verdugo) (September 1989)
6. Jerry Estrada, Ary Romero y Rick Patterson vs. Javier Cruz, Eddy Guerrero y El Dandy (10/6/89)
7. El Dandy, Apolo Dantes y Eddy Guerrero vs. Emilio Charles Jr., Pirata Morgan y Ary Romero (9/29/89)
8. All Star, El Dandy y El Texano vs. Espectro Jr., Jerry Estrada y Rocky Star (10/13/89)
9. Blue Demon Jr., Super Astro y Mascara Sagrada vs. El Supremo, Espectro Jr. y Blue Panther (10/6/89)
10. Jerry Estrada vs. Javier Cruz (Hair vs. Hair) (10/20/89)
11. Chavo Guerrero, Cien Caras y Mascara Ano Dos Mil vs. Lizmark, El Satanico y Rayo De Jalisco Jr. (10/20/89)

 

You really can cut this disc in half quality-wise. Only #6, which so far got low marks from Tim and OJ, seemed like a bit of a stand-out to me from the second half. #11 is the dirt-worst and the less said about the infamous Estrada/Cruz match the better. Still the highs were super high, with that Relevos Suicidos being absolutely top shelf. #2 also came in higher for me than it seems like it might get rated. 

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On a side note, it is really cool knowing that I skipped ahead on the first couple discs, barely reviewed a few, and now can go back and get into the conversation about what people are currently watching. I get to rewatch Herodes, Cota, Cochise, and already know that the folks coming up on the stuff I already watched are going to lose it watching the rest of the set, which just seems to get better as it goes. Lucky!

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Some of these really will feel new again Matt, take my word for it. 

 

DISC 1

 

1. MS-1 vs. Sangre Chicana (9/23/83)

2. Espectro Jr., Satanico y MS-1 vs. Mocho Cota, Sangre Chicana y La Fiera (9/30/83)

3. Atlantis y El Hijo del Santo vs. Fuerza Guerrera y Lobo Rubio (11/25/83)

4. Sangre Chicana vs. Ringo Mendoza (10/28/83)

5. Satoru Sayama y Gran Hamada vs. Perro Aguayo y Baby Face (4/13/80)

6. Andre the Giant & Cien Caras vs. Alfonso Dantes, Herodes y Sangre Chicana (1981)

7. Kevin von Erich, Mascara Ano 2000 y Halcon Ortiz v. Coloso Colosetti, Pirata Morgan y Herodes (9/23/83)

8. Centurion Negro vs. Gran Hamada (2/14/82)

9. Tatsumi Fujinami vs. El Canek (6/12/83)

10. El Canek vs. Don Corleone (2/14/82)

 

Coming back to this, as I've said before, feels like an extras disc considering you have Kevin Von Erich, Andre, Hamada and Sayama showing up and a couple really poor Canek matches. The Centurion/Hamada match is actually good, I feel bad putting it low but something has to be the border between the Caneks and the rest and I did like the Von Erich and especially the Andre match more than I probably should. This would be more a "fun" disc than a "great" disc if it wasn't for MS-1/Chicana, the insane brawl after and the tecnico masterpiece. Which really speaks for how great this set is. You come in on it and you get this wild variety and the best match on the set, maybe one of the top matches ever. You just can't go wrong picking it up and digging through the treasure chest that it is.

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DISC 2

 

1. Tony Salazar vs. Herodes (3/2/84)

2. Mocho Cota vs. Americo Rocca (2/3/84)

3. Mocho Cota vs. Americo Rocca (1/27/84)

4. El Faraón, Herodes y Mocho Cota vs. Lizmark, Ringo Mendoza y Tony Salazar (2/24/84)

5. Solar, Ultraman y Super Astro vs. Sergio El Hermoso, Bello Greco y Rudy Reyna (2/26/84)

6. Lizmark vs. El Satanico (April 1984)

7. Atlantis vs. El Satanico (1984)

8. Jerry Estrada vs. Ultraman (3/2/84)

9. Hijo del Santo, Ringo Mendoza y Chamaco Valaguez vs. Jerry Estrada, Fuerza Guerrera y Talisman (3/9/84)

10. Enrique Vera vs. Dos Caras (2/26/84)

11. Atlantis y Lizmark vs. El Egipcio y El Faraón (2/17/84)

 

I'm going with my initial reviews on this one, though it's been forever. Both of those Rocco/Cota matches will be watched again and will probably be over the Herodes/Salazar match. I just stuck the Satanico title matches next to each other because I hadn't seen the Atlantis one in so long. There are some immediate rewatches I want to do on the next disc but after that, this is getting its deserved attention. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Disc 3 Rankings:

 

1) Gran Cochise vs El Satanico (9/14/84)

2) Perro Aguayo vs Sangre Chicana vs El Faraón vs Villano III (Elimination) (10/84)

3) El Satanico vs Shiro Koshinaka (Hair vs Hair) (7/30/84)

4) El Satanico vs Super Astro (10/26/84)

5) Atlantis, Ringo Mendoza & Tony Salazar vs El Satanico, MS-1 & Espectro Jr (9/28/84)

6) Villano III vs Perro Aguayo (10/7/84)

7) Javier Cruz, Impacto & Solar II vs El Dandy, Franco Colombo & Panico (10/84)
8) Sangre Chicana vs MS-1 (Hair vs Hair) (9/21/84)

9) El Satanico & Espectro Jr vs El Faraón & La Fiera (8/12/84)

 

Only three months since I finished disc 2. I'm guessing there'll be no need to rush this. The Cochise vs Satanico match was an easy #1 for this disc. Satan seems to be everywhere you look in 1984, not that I'm complaining.

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I'm taking a little break from this set. I've watched a bunch of matches a second time (a few have even been watched a third time) and that's lead to a bunch of rankings changing from when I made MOTY lists earlier in this thread. I think I will come back to this after more people have watched and commented which will also help me figure out what I need to watch again. I'll post my full list when the whole process is done but for now here's my working top 20.

 

The order of the top 3 is still up in the air and something I won't finalize until I send in my ballot.

MS-1 vs Sangre Chicana (Hair vs Hair) 9/23/1983
Gran Cochisse vs Satanico (NWA World Middleweight Championship) 9/14/1984
Espanto Jr. vs El Hijo Del Santo (Mask vs Mask) 8/31/1986

 

And the rest:
Los Brazos vs Hombre Bala, Pirata Morgan & El Verdugo (Super Libre) 11/10/1989
Solar, Ultraman & Super Astro vs Sergio El Hermoso, Bello Greco & Rudy Reyna 2/26/1984
Mocho Cota vs Americo Rocca (NWA World Welterweight Championship) 1/27/1984
Pirata Morgan, Hombre Bala & Verdugo vs Atlantis, Angel Azteca & Ringo Mendoza 3/1988
Emilio Charles Jr, Fabuloso Blondy & Pirata Morgan vs El Dandy, Atlantis & El Faraón 7/21/1989
Sangre Chicana vs Perro Aguayo (Hair vs Hair) 2/28/1986
Super Astro, Atlantis & El Faraón vs Fuerza Guerrera, Blue Panther & Emilio Charles 8/18/1989
Sangre Chicana vs Satanico 5/26/1989
La Fiera vs Babyface (Hair vs Hair) 8/15/1986
Jerry Estrada, Pirata Morgan & Hombre Bala vs Atlantis, Alfonso Dantes & Rayo De Jalisco Jr. 2/1987
La Fiera, El Faraón & El Egipico vs MS-1, Satanico & Pirata Morgan 3/29/1985
El Satanico & Espectro Jr. vs El Faraón & La Fiera 8/12/1984
Babyface, Cien Caras & Mascara Año 2000 vs Lizmark, Rayo De Jalisco & La Fiera 1986
MS-1 & Masakre vs El Dandy & El Satanico 8/11/1989
El Hijo del Santo vs Negro Casas (Mask vs Hair) 7/18/1987
Pirata Morgan vs El Dandy (Hair vs Hair) 9/23/1988
Tony Salazar vs Herodes 3/2/1984

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My top five is probably your top three plus Santo/Casas Hair match and the Brazos/Bucaneros Hair match. Guess I might as well order disc ten while I'm thinking about it...

 

DISC 10
 
1. El Brazo y Brazo De Plata vs. Hombre Bala, El Verdugo (Hair vs. Hair) (11/17/89)
2. Emilio Charles Jr., MS-1 y Tierra, Viento y Fuego vs. Atlantis, El Dandy y Mascara Sagrada, (11/24/89)
3. El Brazo, Brazo Del Oro y Brazo Del Plata vs. Hombre Bala, Pirata Morgan y El Verdugo (Super Libre) (11/10/89)
4. El Brazo, Brazo Del Oro y Brazo Del Plata vs. Hombre Bala, Pirata Morgan y El Verdugo (10/27/89)
5. Pirata Morgan vs. Brazo De Oro (11/17/89)
6. El Dandy vs. Emilio Charles Jr. (12/1/89)
7. Fuerza Guerrera vs. El Hijo Del Santo vs. All Star (Mask Match) (12/8/89) 
8. Fuerza Guerrera y Rocky Star vs. All Star y El Hijo Del Santo + Fuerza Guerrera vs. Rocky Star (12/1/89)
9. Pirata Morgan vs. Ken Timbs (12/8/89)
 
Obviously the Brazos disc and they deliver in spades, with #1 being an easy top five pick for me. We also get more Dandy vs. Charles action and of course los Bucaneros acquit themselves expertly as the foils for los Brazos. Morgan/Timbs was the pits and will probably be next-to-last in my rankings and dead last for most. A lopsided disc but the treats are super sweet. 
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Disc 4 Rankings:

 

1. Americo Rocca vs. El Talisman (3/29/85)

2. El Hijo del Santo y Black Shadow Jr. vs. Espanto Jr. y Eskeletor (12/1/85)

3. Javier Cruz vs. El Dandy (10/26/84)

4. Lizmark, Mil Mascaras & Valente Fernandez vs. Sangre Chicana, Angel Blanco & Angel Blanco Jr. (12/1/85)

5. Raul Reyes Jr. y Climax vs. Mocho Cota y Loco Zavala (1985)

6. Atlantis vs. El Faraón (3/22/85)

7. Gran Cochise, Villano III y Rayo De Jalisco Jr. vs. Fishman, Mocho Cota y Tony Bennetto (11/30/84)

8. Sangre Chicana vs. Villano III (12/7/84)

9. La Fiera, El Faraón y El Egipico vs. MS-1, Satanico y Pirata Morgan (3/29/85)

 

 

Should be some big standard deviations for Mookie to calculate.  :D

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Should be some big standard deviations for Mookie to calculate.   :D

 

Haha indeed man. I just compared ours and it's all over the place. 

 

 

This just showed up on Segunda Caida blog, I've posted pics of the bloodletting before. Sucks it didn't get found in time. The trip at the end of the second fall that makes Rambo somehow supernaturally end up on the top rope instead of taking a Psicosis bump is ridiculous as is Villano seemingly taking off his mask just to play to the crowd before stretching what little of it is left on again, as is the finishing stretch, with the end being quite the cherry on top. This would be great as either an extra or addition to the set.

 

EDIT: Sadly there is a lot of clipping. A LOT.

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Disc 5 Rankings:
 
1. Espanto Jr. vs El Hijo Del Santo (Mask vs. Mask) (8/31/86)
2. Rayo De Jalisco Jr. vs. Mascara Ano 2000 (8/15/86)
3. Sangre Chicana vs. Perro Aguayo (Hair vs. Hair) (2/28/86)

4. Ringo Mendoza, Atlantis y Ultraman vs. Satanico, Masakre y MS-1, (September 1986)

5. La Fiera vs. Babyface (8/15/86)

6. El Solitario vs. Dr. Wagner (Mask vs. Mask) (12/1/85)

7. Pirata Morgan, BabyFace y Cien Caras vs. La Fiera, Lizmark y Rayo De Jalisco Jr. (September 1986)
8. Americo Rocca, Cacharro Mendoza y Kung Fu vs. El Talisman, El Dandy y Guerrero Negro (September 1986)
9. Lizmark, Alfonso Dantes y Tony Salazar vs. El Signo, El Texano y Negro Navarro (8/15/86)
 
 
At the halfway mark the thing that has stood out to me most of all is how much blood there used to be in Lucha. For better or worse it hasn't been quite what I expected so far. Most of what I've watched before has been from the early-mid 90's where there's more high flying and less brawling. The latter discs in the set should be moving closer to the style I'm used to. It's certainly interesting to see how things evolved over time.
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  • 2 weeks later...
Disc 6 Rankings:

 

1. Blue Panther, El Talisman y El Dandy vs. Stuka, America Rocca y Chamaco Valaguez (11/86)

2. Atlantis, El Hijo del Santo y Tony Salazar vs. El Satanico, El Dandy y Espectro Jr. (4/3/87)


3. Tony Salazar, Mogur y Alfonso Dantes vs. Hombre Bala, Talisman y Tony Bennetto vs. Satanico, MS-1 y Masakre (4/10/87)

4. Americo Rocca, Ringo Mendoza y Tony Salazar vs. Negro Navarro, El Signo y El Texano (Hair vs. Hair) (9/19/86)


5. Americo Rocca, Javier Cruz y Chamaco Valaguez vs. Talisman, El Dandy y Guerrero Negro (3/13/87)


6. Babyface, Cien Caras y Mascara Ano 2000 vs. Lizmark, Rayo De Jalisco y La Fiera (September 1986)


7. El Satanico, MS-1 y Masakre vs. Rayo de Jalisco Jr., La Fiera y Tony Salazar (3/20/87)


8. Rayo de Jalisco Jr., Atlantis y Alfonso Dantes vs. MS-1, El Satanico y El Dandy (3/27/87)


9. Jerry Estrada, Pirata Morgan y Hombre Bala vs. Atlantis, Alfonso Dantes y Rayo De Jalisco Jr. (Feb 1987)

10. Lizmark, La Fiera y Kung Fu vs. Pirata Morgan, Hombre Bala y Jerry Estrada (2/27/87)

 

The Trios disc. It was all between watchable and good level. Nothing is going to rank in the upper echelons. Generally 6 mans were the standard format and the feature matches were singles for masks, hair or titles.

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  • 1 month later...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVe8EEQJHao

 

I found this by coincidence in of all things, a Headhunters/Los Cowboys sidebar, so I'm posting it here, good or bad.

 

EDIT: Okay that was fucking awesome. Loud, rowdy crowd, Herodes doing strongman spots and bumping like a madman, Kung Fu playing his character perfectly as the little guy who they try and clown on but know he has the skills to pay the bills. If you guys watched that and didn't put it on the set, damn.

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Disc 7 Rankings
 

1. El Hijo Del Santo vs. Espanto Jr. (4/10/88)

2. Arandu vs. Guerrero Negro (Hair vs. Hair) (1988)

3. El Hijo del Santo vs. Negro Casas (Mask vs. Hair) (7/18/87)
4. Pirata Morgan, Hombre Bala y Verdugo vs. Atlantis, Angel Azteca y Ringo Mendoza (3/88)
5. Atlantis vs. Emilio Charles Jr. (8/12/88)
6. Kato Kung Lee vs. Kung Fu (Mask vs. Hair) (4/29/88)
7. Kung Fu v. Javier Cruz (3/88)
8. El Dandy, Magico y Super Astro vs. Gran Cochise, Javier Cruz y Americo Rocca (11/11/87)
9. Mogur vs. As Charro (Mask vs. Mask) (9/18/87)
10. Blue Panther/Sergio El Hermosa v. Super Astro/Solar (10/17/87)
11. Cien Caras vs. Siglo XX (4/10/87)

 

What an incredible disc this was. Even the bottom matches had some things to enjoy. But it's mainly about the top 3, which were all MOTYC in my book. I knew beforehand one of them was great and hoped that another one of them would be also. The other was between two guys I was totally unfamiliar with. So that was stunning, and discovering lost classics is always a thrill. The late 80's took the AJ and NJ sets to a whole new level, and I think the same is going to happen here with lucha.

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