DeathyBoy Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, Matt D said: Great Matches/Opportunity is another issue. Ideally, it's a ratio. What's his ratio of Great Matches/Main Events, or Great Matches/PPV matches, or Great Matches/Matches over 15 minutes? Now compare that to a peer, someone like Styles or Reigns (or Owens or Bray, sure). Where does he stand? I'd argue he carried the company during his top heel run. Dude was having good to great matches monthly. I mean let's not forget he had two matches with Cena and Sting on the same PPV and prior to Sting's injury was rocking it. That and him and Ziggler at SS was some good ass shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 His top heel run is literally one of my least favorite things in WWE history. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man Known as Dan Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 I havent seen the match from yesterday, but generally agree on Seth in his tenure has been a good tag worker and pretty shitty singles worker. He's pretty firmly on my list of "guys who do the things that make modern fans go gaga but can't connect his big spots into matches that actually feel real for shit." Also, his heel title run was an abyss of misery and sadness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamal Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 6 hours ago, Brysynner said: RoseGold was fun on the Mixed Match Challenge though that could have been the aura of Goldust making everyone around him 100x better Yea, Goldust worked similar magic on Aksana 7 hours ago, caley said: I only caught the last hour of Raw so I missed the gauntlet but, is Mandy Rose worse in-ring than Dana Brooke? Cuz she was just awful tonight. Missing moves, blowing moves, missing tags, having to be told visibly what to do by Mickie James. It was ugly. I loved commentary trying to explain Mickie's visible spot calling as talking to herself due to the impact of Mandy's shot lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hagan Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 I've been higher on Seth than a lot of people. I mean, his psychology is garbage but the dude has a motor and explosiveness that very few wrestlers have. In some way, he reminds me a lot of Kenny Omega in that when he wants to hit go, he hits a speed and pace that few wrestlers can match. I mean, as Niners noted, even in those Shield six-mans despite Roman being made to look strong and Dean getting over with his charisma, Rollins was able to stand out by flying all over the goddamn place. Of course, his promos (hehehe) aren't the best and his title run was hot trash due to the booking but when he's given the opportunity the dude is one of the best wrestlers in the company. Also, like with real sports, sometimes guys take a long time to regain explosiveness after an injury. Seth has been off and on a bad knee for a couple years now. If he ever got fully healthy and the company got behind him as a babyface, I think that last night would not be an aberration. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIPPA Posted February 20, 2018 Author Share Posted February 20, 2018 For the record - this was each match time of the gauntlet match. Seth Rollins vs. Roman Reigns (21:07) Seth Rollins vs. John Cena (28:25) Seth Rollins vs. Elias (8:26) Finn Balor vs. Elias (17:03) Finn Balor vs. Miz (11:31) Braun Strowman vs. Miz (11:00) Total: 1:53:32 There clearly is some dispute on exact time as Meltzer was saying on the radio show that the Rollins/Cena match went 32 minutes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hagan Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 Someone should go back to the 1999 Raws and figure out how many weeks it would take to get 1:53:32 of wrestling on Raw. Four or five weeks would be likely. --- edit: scratch that, I wouldn't be shocked if you could find seven straight weeks. A lot of those shows were sub 20 minutes of bell-to-bell wrestling. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 You gotta think Rollins would be super motivated to pull out all the stops after being told he was wrestling for an HOUR straight on national television. If nothing else, it's quite the free advertisement for CrossFit. I get the feeling they may surprise a bunch of folks with Balor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beech27 Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 2 hours ago, Matt D said: Great Matches/Opportunity is another issue. Ideally, it's a ratio. What's his ratio of Great Matches/Main Events, or Great Matches/PPV matches, or Great Matches/Matches over 15 minutes? Now compare that to a peer, someone like Styles or Reigns (or Owens or Bray, sure). Where does he stand? The first point is why wrestling has and will always be hard to evaluate, in this sense. You can't, say, extrapolate stats from 12 to 40 minutes, look at +/-, etc. So while it's not hard to find people who would put Luke Harper or Karl Anderson (ok, maybe that would be hard to find, but I'd do it) on a "best workers" list based primarily on data points that are now years old... at a certain point, you are what you have the opportunity to be. Of the guys mentioned, though... I mean, AJ is ahead of everyone in the company, but besides that? To me, it's a bit of a wash. There are a lot of guys who can fit into the high midcard to main event picture, and have matches that range from dreadful to great, depending on a host of factors. Seth's Authority run was exhausting and mostly bad, because the Authority was exhausting and mostly bad, and his big matches were mostly him running away and benefiting from interference. (Granted, some people are better at making that good than he was.) When he got his massive return-from-injury pop, they didn't run with it, and he's kinda just been around since. Some really good (mostly tag stuff), some pretty bad; mostly, I can't remember it, which is certainly not a great endorsement. Honestly, I think the promo/build stuff is where he is still noticeably lesser than his peers. But once the bell rings, I wouldn't put him below any of those guys except Styles. Some nights he can be worse; some nights he can be better. I know Reigns is generally more praised, but to me, they're really pretty similar: go-go athleticism and strength spots, many of which don't really look that painful and are just "here's some cool/impressive" stuff after the heel has ineffectually beat them up for a bit. (Seth gets called a spot guy because he flips, which has always been a trivial line to draw.) But that's WWE. I get not loving that style, but I can't quite grasp a notion that he's especially bad at it. That's quite a few words to say "idk, it depends", but it... does. He has maybe somewhat more narrow parameters between which he can be good than his peers, but when used right (I know, I know, that's the internet's favorite refrain) he can be as effective as (almost) anyone on the roster. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIPPA Posted February 20, 2018 Author Share Posted February 20, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Dave Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 Seth Rollins isn't my cup of tea. But damn was that fun last night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nice Guy Eddie Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 3 hours ago, Brian Fowler said: His top heel run is literally one of my least favorite things in WWE history. Well, the top champion in the company shouldn't have been playing second fiddle to HHH & Stephanie. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raziel Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said: Well, the top champion in the company shouldn't have been playing second fiddle to HHH & Stephanie. The top champion should also be present and visible, but that doesn't seem to be stopping them from doing that either. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathyBoy Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 46 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said: Well, the top champion in the company shouldn't have been playing second fiddle to HHH & Stephanie. Ah come on. Rollins with J and J was great fun. And that match with Brock and John was absurdly good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.K.o.S. Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Beech27 said: The first point is why wrestling has and will always be hard to evaluate, in this sense. You can't, say, extrapolate stats from 12 to 40 minutes, look at +/-, etc. So while it's not hard to find people who would put Luke Harper or Karl Anderson (ok, maybe that would be hard to find, but I'd do it) on a "best workers" list based primarily on data points that are now years old... at a certain point, you are what you have the opportunity to be. Of the guys mentioned, though... I mean, AJ is ahead of everyone in the company, but besides that? To me, it's a bit of a wash. There are a lot of guys who can fit into the high midcard to main event picture, and have matches that range from dreadful to great, depending on a host of factors. Seth's Authority run was exhausting and mostly bad, because the Authority was exhausting and mostly bad, and his big matches were mostly him running away and benefiting from interference. (Granted, some people are better at making that good than he was.) When he got his massive return-from-injury pop, they didn't run with it, and he's kinda just been around since. Some really good (mostly tag stuff), some pretty bad; mostly, I can't remember it, which is certainly not a great endorsement. Honestly, I think the promo/build stuff is where he is still noticeably lesser than his peers. But once the bell rings, I wouldn't put him below any of those guys except Styles. Some nights he can be worse; some nights he can be better. I know Reigns is generally more praised, but to me, they're really pretty similar: go-go athleticism and strength spots, many of which don't really look that painful and are just "here's some cool/impressive" stuff after the heel has ineffectually beat them up for a bit. (Seth gets called a spot guy because he flips, which has always been a trivial line to draw.) But that's WWE. I get not loving that style, but I can't quite grasp a notion that he's especially bad at it. That's quite a few words to say "idk, it depends", but it... does. He has maybe somewhat more narrow parameters between which he can be good than his peers, but when used right (I know, I know, that's the internet's favorite refrain) he can be as effective as (almost) anyone on the roster. I have a lot of words written about "Great Match Theory" vs a more holistic 360 "Everything Counts" approach to examining a wrestler, but no one wants to see me go on about that now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolfan in NYC Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godfrey Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 The issue for me with Seth’s run as heel champ was that he was intensely unlikable and not in a wrestling way, in a “I find this human being annoying and I don’t want to watch him” way. Coupled with the equally unlikable Stephanie and the unending Authority angle, it made for bad TV. That said, he’s been growing on me as a face recently and this performance was really something to watch. I’d be into Rollins feuding with AJ at some point now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beech27 Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 12 minutes ago, Matt D said: I have a lot of words written about "Great Match Theory" vs a more holistic 360 "Everything Counts" approach to examining a wrestler, but no one wants to see me go on about that now. (I'd click "like" on this, but that might imply I don't want to read a lot of words about that, when the opposite is true. This stuff is interesting. So. Speaking of unnecessary words.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt McGirt Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 Last night also reminded me how much I hate Jeff Jarrett 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brandonr4s Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 So I've only been watching Raw casually lately, but thank God Seth got rid of those flame pants. Yikes. Eddie Guerrero did it right. But he was definitely the MVP last night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overly Critical Man Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 Seth needs to bring back the flame pants. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bink_winkleman Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 The flame pants ruled. I'm pretty lukewarm on Rollins for some time now, but 100% agree that his title run was sabotaged by the Authority (kinda reminded me of Jericho's first run) and he put on a helluva show last night. Braun is probably my favorite purely WWE wrestler since...I dunno...Cena?...but I'm not nearly as big on "Get These Hands" as most. It was cool to shout out in the ring a time or two, but eh. Guessing they're setting Cena up to lose the Chamber and then get cut off by Taker during his "No Road to Mania" promo. Or he'll step in the Rousey match if Rocky is a no go. Or something, but I don't see him winning and of course he'll be at Mania. That promo he gave after the loss seemed pretty distraught, and I wonder if he wasn't being just a little sincere on the emotions since he blew his nearly 10 year Raw win streak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Lord Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 That would have been an amazing PPV main event if they did that on a big show. Man, those commercials seemed like it added another half hour to the match. Match is going good...we'll be right back. Got to hand it Rollins, I honestly didn't think anyone could go 65 minutes in the WWE and make it look compelling. But it was funny, because towards the end of Cena/Rollins it started feeling like playing the video game. You've hit the guy with 6 finishes, a couple piledrivers, spike DDT's of all sorts and despite being near death he still kicks out. Moving onto the bad, why do they think Asuka should be cutting promos? Why do they think she should be trying to remember scripted responses in front of a live crowd? At least backstage they could control it. If they're gonna do that, she really needs a mouthpiece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bink_winkleman Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 Oh yeah, that too - Did not like the Asuke promo. Don't do that. I actually get a kick out of Nak on the mic when it's short enough, but Asuke should just maybe be giving a threat or two, tops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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