Victator Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 1 minute ago, supremebve said: I didn't think our only two choices were blindly trusting the police or forming a lynch mob. I just don't think anyone should trust that the police will handle this rape allegation or any other rape allegation properly. Something like 6 out of every 1000 rapists is convicted. I guess if that is where you want to put your trust, go ahead, but I don't trust anyone who gets results less than 1% of the time. So you come from the school of thought if someone is arrested then they are guilty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supremebve Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, Victator said: So you come from the school of thought if someone is arrested then they are guilty? No, I come from the school of thought that someone can be guilty of raping someone without being accused, arrested, or convicted. Whether or not they are convicted has nothing to do with if they actually committed the rape. The number I referenced had to do with the number of rapes committed, not the number of accusations. There is a link a few pages back that goes into greater detail about how they got those numbers. I don't trust the cops to get to the bottom of it, and based on the results, no one should trust the police in these cases. We live in a country where 35 out of 50 states have laws stating that it is legal for the police to have sex with people in custody...which is legalized rape. https://www.wnyc.org/story/consent-custody-new-york-lacks-laws-prohibiting-police-having-sex-people-custody/ 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 I think this discussion came from me saying let the police do their job and lets stop speculating. Now, whether the police get it right who knows but we don't have all the evidence in front of us so how can we sit here and speculate with such little information? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supremebve Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 7 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said: I think this discussion came from me saying let the police do their job and lets stop speculating. Now, whether the police get it right who knows but we don't have all the evidence in front of us so how can we sit here and speculate with such little information? Because this is the internet and whether or not we think he is guilty doesn't mean anything. Therefore we are allowed to speculate all we want. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 There wouldn't be much of a point to this thread if we stopped speculating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 13 hours ago, supremebve said: No, I come from the school of thought that someone can be guilty of raping someone without being accused, arrested, or convicted. Whether or not they are convicted has nothing to do with if they actually committed the rape. The number I referenced had to do with the number of rapes committed, not the number of accusations. There is a link a few pages back that goes into greater detail about how they got those numbers. I don't trust the cops to get to the bottom of it, and based on the results, no one should trust the police in these cases. We live in a country where 35 out of 50 states have laws stating that it is legal for the police to have sex with people in custody...which is legalized rape. https://www.wnyc.org/story/consent-custody-new-york-lacks-laws-prohibiting-police-having-sex-people-custody/ And what is your solution? Apparently the legal authorities can't be trusted. So we should just hand it off to mobs with no training? If people with your mentality had power, the Central Park Five would have been executed. Now you can rightfully say that the police botched that operation and used coerced confessions to get convictions. But you can also say the police did what they did from the pressure of a mob mentality. With private citizens buying full page newspaper ads demanding justice with no evidence Its not a lynch mob mentality, but not far from it. Or you can look at the Duke Lacrosse case or the Rolling Stone University Of Virginia article. Thankfully those two cases had less dire consequences than the Central Park Five case did. Butall have been conveniently forgotten recently. For the topic at hand, of the actual evidence collected, it sounds like Enzo is guilty. It also sounds like both the accuser and legal authorities have handled this correctly. Allowing a proper investigation to take place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bustronaut Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 Obviously the solution is circular arguments on the internet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristobal Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 What if both lynch mobs AND the police are bad, possibly for entirely different reasons? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 What if it's a Becky Lynch mob? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bustronaut Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 Most jurisdictions are legal lynch mobs at this point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 11 minutes ago, Cristobal said: What if both lynch mobs AND the police are bad, possibly for entirely different reasons? And? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supremebve Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 14 minutes ago, Matt D said: What if it's a Becky Lynch mob? Both me and my body would like to fall victim to a Becky Lynch mob. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristobal Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 8 minutes ago, Victator said: And? And: A conjunction. Used to connect words of the same part of speech, clauses, or sentences that are to be taken jointly, in this case, the idea that the criminal justice system is unacceptably poor at dealing with sexual assault AND vigilante justice is not a good alternative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 5 minutes ago, Cristobal said: And: A conjunction. Used to connect words of the same part of speech, clauses, or sentences that are to be taken jointly, in this case, the idea that the criminal justice system is unacceptably poor at dealing with sexual assault AND vigilante justice is not a good alternative. I was overly harsh. Your tone gives the impression that you were trying to be a smart ass. But I could be wrong on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristobal Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 I have no idea what you are attempting to say here. EDIT, since you have: I can generally be counted on to have some degree of smart ass present, but Vic, you really REALLY don't get to bitch at other people for tone. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SorceressKnight Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 18 minutes ago, Cristobal said: And: A conjunction. Used to connect words of the same part of speech, clauses, or sentences that are to be taken jointly, in this case, the idea that the criminal justice system is unacceptably poor at dealing with sexual assault AND vigilante justice is not a good alternative. The bigger problem is less just "the criminal justice system is unacceptably poor at dealing with sexual assault AND vigilante justice is not a good alternative", and more the fact that the system is completely broken at dealing with sexual assault right now because of the rules given for sexual assault cases. The biggest problem with this is the fact that criminal justice systems, for years now, didn't believe the victims and many, many people who did it are accused of lying. Right now, things are changing to the point all victims are taken at face value, which is an improvement. The only problem is that the core of the legal system is built around "burden of proof" and "innocent until proven guilty", and that very fact boils down to the legal system effectively telling the accuser "I think you're lying, and I want you to prove it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristobal Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 You don't really have to reinvent modern jurisprudence. There is active, systemic resistance within the criminal justice system to dealing with sexual assault even in the way it deals with other serious crimes: Almost 850 Untested Rape Kits Found Growing Mold In Austin Police Storage Over eleven thousand abandoned rape kits found forgotten in a police storage warehouse in Wayne County, Michigan Thousands of Rape Kits Remain Untested, In Storage in Indiana In short, evidence was collected from alleged rape incidents and ROUTINELY HIDDEN AWAY in departments across the country. Accusers' attempts to prove it are actively stymied by the police. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 51 minutes ago, Cristobal said: I have no idea what you are attempting to say here. EDIT, since you have: I can generally be counted on to have some degree of smart ass present, but Vic, you really REALLY don't get to bitch at other people for tone. You're right which is why I edited what I said. I was wrong. 32 minutes ago, SorceressKnight said: The only problem is that the core of the legal system is built around "burden of proof" and "innocent until proven guilty", and that very fact boils down to the legal system effectively telling the accuser "I think you're lying, and I want you to prove it." Well I do not blindly trust the police. It tends to be a worse case scenario before me or anyone in my family involves the cops. I have been very close to ground zero in sexual assault case. Something very terrible happened to an immediate family member. Even with our families great dislike of the police, she went and pressed charges. One place where I think the legal system needs to change, is that lower income accusers should not have to worry about active warrants if they want to press charges. Which I have seen happen more than once in real life. Now as to how actual cases are handled, I think we should want to have stronger standards than "Well this person said you did it and we are putting you in prison for twenty years." There is a way to treat accusers with empathy while giving the accused due process and a fair trial. But it is something everyone has to strive for. Quote You don't really have to reinvent modern jurisprudence. There is active, systemic resistance within the criminal justice system to dealing with sexual assault even in the way it deals with other serious crimes: Almost 850 Untested Rape Kits Found Growing Mold In Austin Police Storage Over eleven thousand abandoned rape kits found forgotten in a police storage warehouse in Wayne County, Michigan Thousands of Rape Kits Remain Untested, In Storage in Indiana In short, evidence was collected from alleged rape incidents and ROUTINELY HIDDEN AWAY in departments across the country. Accusers' attempts to prove it are actively stymied by the police. That is horrid, I would like to see anyone involved in not issuing rape kits put in prison. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristobal Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 15 minutes ago, Victator said: You're right which is why I edited what I said. I was wrong. I am genuinely uncertain what issue you were having with what I was saying. The criminal justice system, which is rife with abuse, corruption, and self-serving selective enforcement, is at its worst in this area. I am however not advocating for lynching Eric Arndt. (Maybe an ass-kicking wouldn't be the worst thing in the world but it's not really a solution for any larger issue.) Quote That is horrid, I would like to see anyone involved in not issuing rape kits put in prison. And that's just the most obvious example. Victims who go to the police are pressured to drop charges, change their stories, etc. Lawyers decline to prosecute, judges suddenly worry about rapists' futures, etc. In short, abusers cover for abusers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolfan in NYC Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 Yes. I think we're all done here. 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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