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UFC 220: Miočić vs. Ngannou (1/20/2018) - Boston, MA (TD Garden)


Elsalvajeloco

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13 minutes ago, OSJ said:

Just as no one who drew money in pro wrestling has ever been blackballed, no matter how awful their behavior; no one who draws money in the UFC is ever going to have to eat the suspension that they deserve. Whereas a Lyoto Machida would get the kiss of death if he pisses hot again, you can be assured that somehow Jones is going to be allowed to slide. Quite simply, he draws too much money to be discarded. The UFC has a real problem with picking the wrong folks to strap the rocket to. You have situations where they get exposed as not being all that and a bag of chips (see: Rousey, Ronda) or turn out to be unreliable headcases (see: McGregor, Conor). With so many falling stars that the UFC resembles a meteor shower, you can be assured that someone like Bones Jones who demonstrably puts asses in seats is going be welcomed back with open arms. Oh, we may see that paragon of moral fiber, Dana White huff and puff and make a few self-righteous tweets for appearances sake, but the bottom line is that he's going to be handing Bones a big bag of money and smirking about how they got one over on everyone. MMA is damn near as carny as pro wrestling.

I'm fairly certain Jones has never been the draw that Rousey or Conor were/are.

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I'm pretty sure the highest grossing Jones headlined PPV was last year's against Cormier, and it did like 860K. FWIW, that doesn't even break the Top 20 in terms of highest buys for UFC events. But, maybe my internet detective skills are failing me.

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10 hours ago, Oyaji said:

Curtis Blaydes is a better wrestler than Miocic and the comparison to Kongo is ridiculous.

I think it was a combination of poor strategy on Francis' part (spending everything so early) and nerves. He looked slower at the start of the fight than he did previously, he was more aggressive than he usually is (he's at his best countering), and tried to force things too much too early. I think he can learn from this, become a better fighter and will earn another title shot (even if he doesn't learn, he's good enough to beat just about every other heavyweight out there barring Cain if he ever gets healthy again). Heck of respect to Miocic for taking those early shots (and that one last great power punch in the third I believe), avoiding the pocket as best he could, and timing his takedowns perfectly.

Oezdemir was really disappointing. He looked like he was throwing punches underwater they were coming so fucking slow at DC. He never had a chance. Yeah, I want DC/Gustafsson though with that POS Novitzky posturing already, I doubt Jones gets much of a suspension and will probably be welcomed back with open arms.

Time to go back and watch the rest of the main card, though I'm guessing with how early the title fights were on they didn't go long.

Arguable.  Miocic wrestled Division I and was nationally ranked.  Did Blaydes compete at the Division I national level?  

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He won a NJCAA national title. What was Stipe's college resume like? Stipe used some excellent wrestling to counter the heavy hands of Francis, so it's not like you need to be Cain Velasquez to take him down. Just smart and decent technique. If Ngannou ends up fading away to obscurity, then yeah, make the Kongo comparison but with HW being so thin and his power being so insane, I don't see it.

What's the latest on Cain's recovery? Do we ever see anything resembling his prime again? 

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With the Cormier thing I have a theory: fans are savvier than they are given credit for and can see that he was totally wronged. Thus he's now seen by them as a super babyface.

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10 hours ago, Hail Sabin said:

Dana on the post fight show hinted at asking DC to come up in weight to fight Miocic. 

I think it's basically Werdum or bust for the next title contender. DC is adamant about not going back to HW. Cain just started back light training and is in no rush to overdo it and get another debilitating injury.

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1 hour ago, Oyaji said:

He won a NJCAA national title. What was Stipe's college resume like? Stipe used some excellent wrestling to counter the heavy hands of Francis, so it's not like you need to be Cain Velasquez to take him down. Just smart and decent technique. If Ngannou ends up fading away to obscurity, then yeah, make the Kongo comparison but with HW being so thin and his power being so insane, I don't see it.

What's the latest on Cain's recovery? Do we ever see anything resembling his prime again? 

Stipe Miocic was a Division I NCAA All-American. At one point he was nationally ranked at No. 17 in the country. He made it to national championships, but lost his two matches there.  I would still put Division I > NJCAA. 

Quote

I think it's basically Werdum or bust for the next title contender. DC is adamant about not going back to HW. Cain just started back light training and is in no rush to overdo it and get another debilitating injury.

 

Their faith in Cain Velasquez has clearly been shattered. 

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Ideally it should be NJCCA < D1 but you would also think D1 title > D1 All American. However, Cain competed in a tougher era than when Brock won his D1 title. I went through the NCAA D1 championships results for different years a few weeks back and it always kills me when I see like 5 or 6 different MMA fighters in one bracket. However, it's evident when you see basically a murderer's row of like future Olympians and people who already finished in the top 3 the previous year(s) in one bracket that all credentials aren't created equally. That's why plenty of the top wrestlers who went through the D1 ranks don't do as well in MMA similar to JuCo, D2 & D3 champs like a Marcus LeVesseur who went 155-0 at Augsburg College don't do well. Roger Huerta who went to the same college as a wrestler had more success in the UFC than LeVesseur. The wrestling can be an extremely important factor but if you don't develop the skills around it, it won't matter at all.

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1 hour ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I think it's basically Werdum or bust for the next title contender. DC is adamant about not going back to HW. Cain just started back light training and is in no rush to overdo it and get another debilitating injury.

It seemed like it was classic Dana with no long term plan or 1 year plan either because he added that he wanted DC to fight for the title at heavyweight and if Cain did come back then DC would vacate the title if he won and just go back to 205. 

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4 minutes ago, Hail Sabin said:

It seemed like it was classic Dana with no long term plan or 1 year plan either because he added that he wanted DC to fight for the title at heavyweight and if Cain did come back then DC would vacate the title if he won and just go back to 205. 

Well, the Jones hearing next month (IIRC) should set the dominoes in motion. As much the UFC probably doesn't want to do Stipe vs. Werdum II, the carrot being dangled out in front of them is DC vs. Jones III (should that be a possibility) which would supersede DC vs. Gus II or Dana's scenario of Stipe vs. DC. In addition, they have to evaluate the severity of Cormier's hand injury. When you're waiting for people to get healed and whether or not someone gets suspended for a short time or the "death penalty" suspension, then it's impossible to have a long term plan anyway.

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Good points. 

I was taking about no long term or 1 year plan in the sense of what is the point of Miocic vs. DC being if DC wins he will just vacate if Cain comes back but the UFC we know seems to love interim titles at the moment. Of course this is Dana and in a week or two weeks he could flip on all of this anyway. 

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1 hour ago, Hail Sabin said:

Good points. 

I was taking about no long term or 1 year plan in the sense of what is the point of Miocic vs. DC being if DC wins he will just vacate if Cain comes back but the UFC we know seems to love interim titles at the moment. Of course this is Dana and in a week or two weeks he could flip on all of this anyway. 

Well the thing is to capitalize on the momentum from the winner of last's main event. Shit, if Jon can't come back or Cain is out for another long stretch, that would make sense as a retirement fight for Cormier. I mean after Gus, who is there really for Cormier? OSP maybe but I doubt people are clamoring for that. Glover could be a fun fight but I mean is that a big fight really? In the "worst" case scenario for LHW and HW where Cormier beats Gus and Stipe beats Werdum again, what is the futures of both divisions? There isn't a bunch of prospects on the horizon. Dominick Reyes could be really interesting but he is a ways off. Jordan Johnson is a very, very good wrestler, but everything else is incredibly raw. Gokhan Saki is a wildcard but he got tagged by ole Frankenstein Jr who is like 1/6 the striker he is. Ngannou is still the best HW prospect and he just got a title shot. Blaydes has good qualities but his immobility in certain areas and lack of fight IQ when he can't be devastating is going to be a hindrance. We don't truly know how good Minakov is. I mean Volkov has done respectable but MMAth does not really apply when that fight took place years ago now. So even if they sign Minakov, who knows what he can do against a top HW?

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1 hour ago, TheVileOne said:

Any plans for Jones/DC III would be overshadowed by Jones' next inevitable fuck-up ie LT or Darryl Strawberry.

If it does the same business as 214, they don't give a shit. In the midst of negotiating a new TV deal, the sanction that Jon gets is a big factor in their future. 650-750k on PPV one time looks better at the end of the year than a couple of 150-225k PPVs a year. The court of public opinion is directly tied to their business unless that opinion is people not buying the PPVs. The fact of Conor McGregor wasn't a pro boxer and the scrutiny that came from that didn't overshadow the $40 million+ (per Meltzer BTW) that UFC got from that fight last year. If the scrutiny means money, they will take that gladly.

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18 hours ago, Ace said:

I'm fairly certain Jones has never been the draw that Rousey or Conor were/are.

Didn't mean to imply that he was/is, however he IS a marketable name in an organization that due to its very nature has problems when it comes to sustaining marketable names. The trouble with MMA is that everyone loses sooner or later and casual fans still make the false equivalency with boxing  where as long as I've been alive it has never been at all unusual for a guy to get the rocket strapped to his ass and be protected while he runs up a record of 17-0 or what have you, cheerfully thumping away on various and sundry  Palookas of the week while further padding the W-L record against guys that are happy to fill the role of a heavy bag for a couple of cold pizzas and all the beer they can drink. Sure, you have fighters protected in MMA, but not to the extent where they will have double digits of meaningless wins against laughably weak opponents. MMA is still a much smaller universe than boxing and there just aren't the amount of places to hide. You're going to have to face real competition sooner, rather than later or suddenly you look in the mirror and realize that you're 37 years old with an 11-16 record and your next Saturday night is scheduled to be spent at a Native American casino facing some 24 year-old kid with a 6-1 record. Oh, well at least the casino is giving you two hundred bucks in free slots play and  a complimentary all-you-can-eat buffet coupon.

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Watching Errol Spence this past weekend against Lamont Peterson lets me know that Errol Spence was talented enough to do what Lomachenko did and face top fighters just 2-4 fights into his career. Same could be said about Crawford honestly. However, exposure is more the reason fighters have a dozen and a half fights before getting a title shot in boxing rather than developing fighters. The irony here is that in MMA where fighters do need that development, you can fight for a title at 5-0 or 6-0 or 3-1 the same as you could if you had the equivalent of a Mexican boxer journeyman record of 30-14. IMO both sports have opposing problems with making stars. In MMA, it's the problem of too much too fast where you get more Brandon Veras than Conor McGregors. In boxing, promoters wait til fights are as stale as leftover Wonder Bread where you get more Gamboa-Juan Manuel Lopez fights that never get made than Tyson-Holyfields or Leonard-Haglers. Of course you have something like GSP vs. Anderson Silva and Fedor vs. Brock, but how realistic were they in the first place? 

When it comes to someone like Jon Jones...I say this. I remember when Don King and Main Events both had amazing rosters of fighters. They had the ability to put on good cards every other month. In the case of DKP, giants cards with like 5 title fights where not all of them where televised. Now, the only fighter Don King has of note is Amir Imam. Kathy Duva only has Sergey Kovalev. You play the hand you're dealt as a promoter. Unless you create newer options or you randomly come across someone who can be a big asset, all the calculations end up the same.

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I agree with the criticism the Heavy Hands guys have been throwing at UFC matchmaking the past year or so. Great random acts of violence but not a whole lot of narrative that we'd see an awful lot more of in the '00s under Silva. The Kattar/Burgos fight is a good example of throwing two fighters who should be in there against beatable vets then gatekeepers instead of fighting each other. Nobody gave a fuck about that fight when both of those guys have the potential to be title challengers in the not too distant future and perhaps more people could be invested in such a fight it would make a lot more sense. I'd like to see more high end prospects get the kid gloves treatment for a handful of fights then start taking on serious fighters. I know even then they'll still lose from time to time but I think it's a far more effective way of trying to build stars than throwing everybody against each other right away and seeing who's the last rat standing.

Look at what they did with Tom Duquesnoy, who many thought was the best prospect in MMA. They put him in there with a relatively unknown fighter in his prime who had an 8-fight win streak going into that fight and Duquesnoy loses a split decision.

Say what you will about Bellator but at a glance they seem to do this better than UFC usually does. They gave MVP a bunch of cans to knock out in glorious fashion and they're building up Pico right too despite the initial hiccup.

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1 hour ago, Oyaji said:

I agree with the criticism the Heavy Hands guys have been throwing at UFC matchmaking the past year or so. Great random acts of violence but not a whole lot of narrative that we'd see an awful lot more of in the '00s under Silva. The Kattar/Burgos fight is a good example of throwing two fighters who should be in there against beatable vets then gatekeepers instead of fighting each other. Nobody gave a fuck about that fight when both of those guys have the potential to be title challengers in the not too distant future and perhaps more people could be invested in such a fight it would make a lot more sense. I'd like to see more high end prospects get the kid gloves treatment for a handful of fights then start taking on serious fighters. I know even then they'll still lose from time to time but I think it's a far more effective way of trying to build stars than throwing everybody against each other right away and seeing who's the last rat standing.

Look at what they did with Tom Duquesnoy, who many thought was the best prospect in MMA. They put him in there with a relatively unknown fighter in his prime who had an 8-fight win streak going into that fight and Duquesnoy loses a split decision.

Say what you will about Bellator but at a glance they seem to do this better than UFC usually does. They gave MVP a bunch of cans to knock out in glorious fashion and they're building up Pico right too despite the initial hiccup.

The thing with MVP is they haven't converted what he possibly could be into something they can actually use. He has had a whole host of injuries along with a bout of inactivity. I think the Gonzalez fight scared them off of doing anything substantial with him. They only did a small step up, and he didn't look that good. Now he's doing boxing and he may or may not have his next MMA fight in the spring. The dude is 30 and has been in Bellator coming up on five years...and he hasn't done anything really. He's just someone they kinda have stashed away. The problem here is if you keep him stashed away, what good is he? If you've been fighting a promotion for FIVE YEARS and I still can't tell what your upside is, there is a huge, huge flaw in your development. It's not like Andre Ward where it was clear Dan Goossen was moving him along really slowly and then the Super Six was his coming out party. Everyone knew Ward was the darling of the 2004 US Olympic boxing team, but being with a small promoter whose only real stars where Cris Arreola and Paul Williams who weren't even big stars would be an obvious obstacle. The Super Six was a godsend for his career (pun intended since Andre is the S.O.G.). Bellator has been on Spike (now the Paramount Network) forever at this point. He has fought Rudy Bears and a bunch of other soup kitchen workers. Now after the Gonzalez fight which was a more than a year ago, he might go back to that. Now, the pace of his career has spilled over into creating conflict elsewhere. Daley is mad that Bellator is still focusing on guiding MVP's career when he actually beat a quality welterweight and has basically threatened to leave the promotion when his deal ends a year and a half from now.

That's why I have a hard time comparing UFC prospects with Bellator prospects. Bellator isn't committed to as many fighters as UFC is and they can afford to stash fighters like an MVP. Therefore, you're going to have as many ups as you have downs in the UFC with prospects. Whereas with Bellator, if there system of getting prospects going was working...enough would be hitting that you wouldn't be living off UFC retreads and having them all in the main events of the biggest cards. That's just what it is. 

You have to be able to find a comfortable middle ground. I think Cody Stamann is a fine middle ground to be honest. I don't think he's much better than anyone Duquesnoy faced before. Duquesnoy' strategy in that fight was very questionable, and Stamann was a tough and durable guy which is a good quality for an opponent to have after the Beal fight. Pico fought a dude who wasn't even on that level and lost. And that's problem with the other side of the coin. Yeah, Pico is going to look like Jesus when you put him in with clear jobbers. But as soon he faces another fighter who pushes him back and he doesn't look impressive, are you going to panick like you did with MVP after the Gonzalez debacle? I hope not because Bellator can't really afford to waste the careers of people when the retreads they're using for the most part are already old as hell. One of these fighters has got to hit and become a homegrown superstar who can be the face of the company so they can begin to make money for real.

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On ‎1‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 1:18 AM, TheVileOne said:

A very low gas tank.

As the Post-Fight Analysis said, his build is a blessing and a curse.  Any middling takedown defense he already has will be negated the further the fight goes as his stamina will always be tested the further the fight goes..

I don't know how far back he can retool when he goes back to the drawing board. TBH, I am not even sure IF he can go back.

His only way forward in these sorts of situations may be to pressure even more than he already does and make sure one of those haymakers actually connects.

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