The Cody Rhodes/YB All In Show Thread

[Niners Fan in CT]

On 3/22/2018 at 3:51 PM, Brian Fowler said:

I never got the criticism during the CWC. He was so clearly the best guy in the field by a huge margin.

Kota had the hottest matches out of anyone and I'd say Gran Metalik was a better performer also. 

[Brian Fowler]

2 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

Kota had the hottest matches out of anyone and I'd say Gran Metalik was a better performer also. 

Personal opinion first: I thought Zack was better.

Anecdotal: the two people I worked with who had the WWE Network asked me literally every week after his first match in the tourny if Sabre was going to be on the show that week. They literally didn't ask me about a single other guy in it.

[JonnyLaw]

Gallagher was better than ZSJ in the CWC.

[Jenalysis]

having Taka as a hypeman really helped put the whole ZSJ package together- Taka is lowkey incredible as a mic worker,  and combine that with how NJPW makes ZSJ have a real weakness (most obvious in the Ibushi match where it was pretty much striking vs submissions) makes NJPW Zack really compelling to watch.

I'm interested in seeing ZSJ and Minoru eventually turn on each other.

 

[Archibald]

1 hour ago, alstein said:

I'm interested in seeing ZSJ and Minoru eventually turn on each other.

 

I think that might WK-worthy match.

[Casey]

On the subject of the CWC and Sabre Jr.... his showings in that tournament left a lot to be desired for me personally. It was my first exposure to his work, and I came out of those matches thinking his selling was out of this world goofy and dumb (not to mention his facial expressions).

His heel work in New Japan turned me around on ZSJ, but the CWC did him no favors in my book.

[Jiji]

I enjoyed this week's BTE. Marty corpsing every time Fat Ass Masa says anything silly is still the best. They've learned to get him out of the shot but you can see his body shaking from laughter following Masa's delivery.

Oh and the Bucks catching onto Cody's game is interesting too.

[StuntmanCrowley]

Is all of the information for this just coming out on Rhodes twitter?  or is there a Facebook/omnibus website dedicated to it yet?  I haven't been able to find one if there is.

[Beech27]

It has its own twitter, at least

 

[Guest Edwin]

On 3/26/2018 at 7:46 AM, Matt D said:

I don't get why people would watch ZSJ when there are probably Zoltan Boscik matches they've never seen. That's my honest opinion. 

Not trying to be that guy or anything, but that is a very odd POV. It just seems like you're namedropping an obscure 60's - 70's British wrestler for the sake of namedropping him.

Imagine a football fan telling another fan "I don't get why people would watch a Manchester United now when they are probably Manchester United 50's matches they've never seen. That's my honest opinion."

[Matt D]

24 minutes ago, Edwin said:

Not trying to be that guy or anything, but that is a very odd POV. It just seems like you're namedropping an obscure 60's - 70's British wrestler for the sake of namedropping him.

Imagine a football fan telling another fan "I don't get why people would watch a Manchester United now when they are probably Manchester United 50's matches they've never seen. That's my honest opinion."

First off, Zoltan Boscik's a hell of a wrestler. There are matches on youtube and he's well worth tracking down (the Jim Breaks match is a good starting point). The point is that I think people would get more out of tracking him down as opposed to just consuming what's being fed to them and thinking it's somehow special or unique.

Second, the difference is that one is sport and one is art, whether it's high or low art.

The general argument is that ZSJ has lifted a lot of the actual nuts and bolts elements (the moves/holds: "what he does") of the classic WoS style, but without a lot of the trappings and faux competitive underpinnings that made them work in context (the story/setting/atmosphere: "how they're used"), and that someone actually wouldn't recognize that in practice unless they take a look at the source material that he's lifted from and see how things were done differently back then, generally in a more vibrant, vivid, and visceral style. The argument is this: "Why would anyone want to see someone go through the motions in some generally bankrupt form of fan fiction when they haven't even gone back and seen the original use of those motions, orchestrated in a much more meaningful way to more interesting ends?" 

Maybe it's more along the lines of "Why would someone want to see the 2015 film "Victor Frankenstein" written by Max Landis when they'd never seen the 1931 Frankenstein? There are similar riffs and you can watch it with popcorn, and hey, maybe AFTER you've seen the 1931 movie you're could move on to it, but...

[Guest Edwin]

24 minutes ago, Matt D said:

First off, Zoltan Boscik's a hell of a wrestler. There are a lot on youtube and he's well worth tracking down. The point is that I think people would get more out of tracking him down as opposed to just consuming what's being fed to them and thinking it's somehow special or unique.

Second, the difference is that one is sport and one is art, whether it's high or low art.

The general argument is that ZSJ has lifted a lot of the actual nuts and bolts elements (the moves/holds: "what he does") of the classic WoS style, but without a lot of the trappings and faux competitive underpinnings that made them work in context (the story/setting/atmosphere: "how they're used"), and that someone actually wouldn't recognize that in practice unless they take a look at the source material that he's lifted from and see how things were done differently back then, generally in a more vibrant, vivid, and visceral style. The argument is this: "Why would anyone want to see someone go through the motions in some generally bankrupt form of fan fiction when they haven't even gone back and seen the original use of those motions, orchestrated in a much more meaningful way to more interesting ends?" 

I knew what you meant originally and I just pointed out it was an odd POV. I personally don't like most of 60's - 70's wrestling and I'm a huge Catch fan and know a ton of guys who worked in that time frame had a Catch background, but I don't go out of my way to watch them because a lot of that stuff bored me. However, I can watch someone like Kazushi Sakuraba, Josh Barnett or even Timothy Thatcher and enjoy them even though they're students or carbon copies of guys who worked mostly in the 60's - early 80's. And I still appreciate them despite that.

Not everyone likes going back and revisiting old footage and they prefer spending their time watching modern stuff which is totally understandable or should be totally understandable.

I know a ton of modern fans who can't stomach the Dynamite Kid/Tiger Mask series, but they can sit through endless carbon copies of the style because it's what they like and I totally understand them because hey, it's what they like. I don't go out of my way to tell them "I don't get why you would watch a Davey Richards match when they are Dynamite Kid matches you've never seen."

[Matt D]

1 minute ago, Edwin said:

I knew what you meant originally and I just pointed out it was an odd POV. I personally don't like most of 60's - 70's wrestling and I'm a huge Catch fan and know a ton of guys who worked in that time frame had a Catch background, but I don't go out of my way to watch them because they're not of my interest. Not everyone likes going back and revisiting old footage and they prefer spending their time watching modern stuff which is totally understandable or should be totally understandable.

I know a ton of modern fans who can't stomach the Dynamite Kid/Tiger Mask series, but they can sit through endless carbon copies of the style because it's what they like and I totally understand them because hey, it's what they like. I don't go out of my way to tell them "I don't get why you would watch a Davey Richards match when they are Dynamite Kid matches you've never seen."

The serious answer is that there's a difference between having Dynamite Kid matches you haven't seen and not having ever seen a Dynamite Kid match. I'd say that more people who are watching Davey Richards have seen Dynamite Kid (and even DK vs Tiger Mask) than most people seeing ZSJ are familiar at all with WoS style (all the more so if you control for Johnny Saint, who's relatively atypical anyway). 

The flippant answer is that the difference is that you can find a lot better things to do with your time than watching Dynamite Kid/Tiger Match matches OR Davey Richards matches. One's not demonstrably better than the other, necessarily. On the other hand Jim Breaks vs Zoltan Boscik is better than most ZSJ in part because of the earnestness, meaning behind moves, and general atmosphere. 

[Godfrey]

The comparison I would use is why listen to this Greta Van Fleet song when you could easily listen to Led Zeppelin (only imagine that only record store nerds had ever heard of Led Zep). The answer is they would like the original more, but this is what's on the radio right now and that's as much work as 99% of people want to do. Pointing out it's a rip off makes you sound like the dad who doesn't like today's music, even if it's true.

 

[jaedmc]

I'm so happy you exist Matt.

[Matt D]

I'm pretty happy with the ZSJ is basically Max Landis thing I came up with totally by accident. 

[jaedmc]

I thought you would have spent more time in this thread complaining about Cody's facials when he does a drop kick, but that's ME living in the past.

[Guest Edwin]

1 minute ago, Matt D said:

The serious answer is that there's a difference between having Dynamite Kid matches you haven't seen and not having ever seen a Dynamite Kid match. I'd say that more people who are watching Davey Richards have seen Dynamite Kid (and even DK vs Tiger Mask) than most people seeing ZSJ are familiar at all with WoS style (all the more so if you control for Johnny Saint, who's relatively atypical anyway).  

Sure, but I was just using that as a quick example...

2 minutes ago, Matt D said:

On the other hand Jim Breaks vs Zoltan Boscik is better than most ZSJ in part because of the earnestness, meaning behind moves, and general atmosphere. 

OK, sure, they maybe better technically and what not, but that doesn't mean ZSJ fans will necessarily agree find them better.

I'm personally not a ZSJ fan myself and am not defending him, but I just think (as I've stated twice before already) it's odd for you to not understand why someone may like one and not the other.

7 minutes ago, Godfrey said:

The comparison I would use is why listen to this Greta Van Fleet song when you could easily listen to Led Zeppelin (only imagine that only record store nerds had ever heard of Led Zep). The answer is they would like the original more, but this is what's on the radio right now and that's as much work as 99% of people want to do. Pointing out it's a rip off makes you sound like the dad who doesn't like today's music, even if it's true.

Yep.

[Matt D]

It was March in a year lacking Madness and the all-too-human outlets that go along with that. It was kinder to just not understand.

That said, I'm fine with this whole thread getting off my lawn, sure. I mean, Pentagon Jr. can stay if he wants to. I'm not telling him to go anywhere  (though people should probably watch some La Parka vs Wagner or Rush or in Monterrey or something too, just saying). See, I can't even help myself. 

[Guest Edwin]

There's this at least: http://deathvalleydriver.com/forum/index.php?/topic/6894-bryan-danielson-vs-kenta-kobashi

Edited April 4, 2018 by Edwin

[Beech27]

I know I’ve already weighed in on this, but I’d still like to push back against the notion that he only reason people would like ZSJ or any other currently popular thing is because it’s easy, that they’re “fed” and thus mindlessly consume. There’s a big difference between “I don’t like X” and “The only way people can like X is out of ignorance or otherwise performing fandom wrong.” The latter is... not great.

Regarding Sabre specifically, I don’t think people regard him as a peerless or wholly unique grappler in the annals of wrestling history; the appeal is his novelty in the present scene, and how he and his opponents use that variable. Okada doesn’t have a time machine, but he did have a title match against Sabre. (I liked it, but ymmv.)

Also, uh... he’s not booked for this show? Lol

[Matt D]

34 minutes ago, Beech27 said:

I know I’ve already weighed in on this, but I’d still like to push back against the notion that he only reason people would like ZSJ or any other currently popular thing is because it’s easy, that they’re “fed” and thus mindlessly consume. There’s a big difference between “I don’t like X” and “The only way people can like X is out of ignorance or otherwise performing fandom wrong.” The latter is... not great.

It's odd. (Edwin likes using odd. Let's go with odd). I'm far more concerned about quality and general understanding of what you're seeing than canon in this case. Move X happens for Reason Y. Do I think it's important to understand why someone might go for a drop down for instance (spoiler: it's a trip attempt), in order to watch modern wrestling with rope-running? A little bit. I'm not convinced that a majority of wrestlers wrestling today know though, so where do you draw the line?

Is that different than knowing who the second Intercontinental Champion is? Yeah. Knowing that wouldn't really help anyone watch modern wrestling. On the other hand, you could probably learn something from watching a chunk of Ken Patera matches from 1980. I get the idea of ownership, of fan fiction as a way to interact with a genre that might have previously underrepresented one audience or another. I also get the danger behind an entrenched fandom using canon as an exclusionary tool against new voices and people finding new enjoyment/identity. 

I'm not convinced that's what i'm doing here. I'd never exclude anyone on trivial grounds. My general mindset is this: if you like something, engage with it. Learn about it. Think about it. Dissect it and see how it ticks. Deconstruct it and build it back up. Figure out the etymology of it. If you care enough about something to talk about it on an archaic part of the internet, give a shit. It does bug me that people lionize ZSJ while 60s-70s WoS is one of the most under-explored styles of wrestling, but that has to do more with the latter element than the former. The former is more of an unfortunate symbol than anything else. 

It's not like there's a dogmatic, exclusionary view on Steve Grey being one of the best babyfaces ever. That's not a bastion of western pro-wrestling thought. It should be. It just isn't.

[Guest Edwin]

Matt,

I like you and I enjoy reading your takes on things (that Onita vs. Spinks match from the other day, for example) and I agree that the old WoS Brit. wrestling needs to be explored more in-depth (and European wrestling in general, to be honest), but I can see why some newer fans would prefer ZSJ to that stuff.

The ZSJ fans reflect the old ROH hardcore fan base. Back when ROH brought in guys like Liger, Kobashi and the Dragon Gate crew, I had high hopes that some of my friends that were ROH hardcore fans would decide to explore Japanese pro-wres as they thought those guys were great and I even recommended they checked other stuff with those guys that I thought was better such as the Liger vs. Sano feud, the Kobashi vs. Akiyama feud from Noah or the earlier Toryumon 3 ways, but they just never got into it for some reason.

Sure Japanese pro-wres already had a sizable fan base compared to those who've watched the old WoS stuff, but still I thought it would have been nice for them to jump aboard too, but it never happened and unfortunately they just recently jumped onboard and it's mostly just because of the Bullet Club stuff.

[(BP)]

Okay, I'm watching that Onita/Spinks match as soon as I finish Andre/Bock. 

[Peck]