Technico Support Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 Wanting to emulate Sabre's goofy style is a pretty good indicator that there is still brain damage and maybe they should pump the brakes on this whole thing. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVA Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 Good god, man, watch this year’s New Japan Cup and stay woke. 7 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raziel Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 Just now, EVA said: Good god, man, watch this year’s New Japan Cup and stay woke. co-sign. I was no fan of ZSJ, but letting MiSu teach him how to lay shit out properly and work has done wonders for him. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiji Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 My only criticism is he needs to stop fidgeting between half-arsed additions to his submissions. Chaining from one to the other or adding something is great but there are usually 3-5 times per match where he will just grab a hold of a limb and it doesn't look like a damn thing hurts, then he'll realize "this is dumb" and move on. Other than that, I disagreed with the heavy criticism he faced in the CWC and don't think he's actually changed that much. Sure, there's a bit more of Suzuki to him now but I don't think it's drastic if you watch his EVOLVE and PWG work. He's mostly the same guy. Okay, maybe not my only criticism, as I hope to see him be a little bit less predictable and less like Suzuki in that nearly every match he works in New Japan is a Zack match. Great examples of him being bullied out of his match are the two incredible WALTER matches from the past six months or so. Having his match is great and it absolutely fit the narrative of the cup and his rise to the top, but he'll need to show more after his title challenge. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beech27 Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 Admittedly, I've been a Sabre fan--apologist?--for a while, but I do think he does a better job in New Japan of playing up his strengths and weaknesses, which makes for a more compelling "styles make fights" sort of contrast. His independent vintage can sometimes trade/sustain a few too many strikes and head drops, whereas in New Japan, he's really a glass cannon: Incredibly dangerous when he's on offense, but not nearly as hard to put down as other top guys if you can actually manage to hit him. He was selling those left handed body punches from Tanahashi--not exactly booked as an extraordinary striker--like death during the Cup finals, for instance. Anyway... maybe Sabre will work this show, so this whole digression will seem really prescient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 I never got the criticism during the CWC. He was so clearly the best guy in the field by a huge margin. He's awesome, Bryan incorporating some of that style will be awesome. Awesome. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiji Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 56 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said: I never got the criticism during the CWC. He was so clearly the best guy in the field by a huge margin. He's awesome, Bryan incorporating some of that style will be awesome. Awesome. Ibushi? I thought Ibushi was the clear cut MVP of the tournament followed by either Zack or Alexander. Fucking TJP...w 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 3 hours ago, nate said: "Vegetarian submission masters tag team" is going to be the best collection of words I come across today, I think. We'll never see them against the Vegan wrestlers pissed off at Bryan for selling them out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eivion Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 1 hour ago, Brian Fowler said: I never got the criticism during the CWC. He was so clearly the best guy in the field by a huge margin. He's awesome, Bryan incorporating some of that style will be awesome. Awesome. Ibushi or Kendrick were the best in the CWC. After them I would say Metalik offhand. Sabre was probably the fourth or fifth best guy, and even that depends on where you rank Gargano, TJP, Alexander, & Swann. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tromatagon Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 Fenix is announced to be a part of this now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odessasteps Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beech27 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 5 hours ago, Pete said: We'll never see them against the Vegan wrestlers pissed off at Bryan for selling them out... Sabre is vegan, and a self-identified socialist—rather than just sorta new agey progressive—so there’s your breakup angle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIPPA Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 13 hours ago, Tromatagon said: Fenix is announced to be a part of this now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Web Conn Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 So they won’t be at the Lucha Convention that weekend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tromatagon Posted March 24, 2018 Share Posted March 24, 2018 They're doing both, leaving to fly out for the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technico Support Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 On 3/22/2018 at 2:25 PM, Oyaji said: My only criticism is he needs to stop fidgeting between half-arsed additions to his submissions. Chaining from one to the other or adding something is great but there are usually 3-5 times per match where he will just grab a hold of a limb and it doesn't look like a damn thing hurts, then he'll realize "this is dumb" and move on. That's been my criticism of him -- just floating between loose submissions like some weird WoS cosplay, "look how British this shit is!" If he's changed that, awesome! I'll check it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 I don't get why people would watch ZSJ when there are probably Zoltan Boscik matches they've never seen. That's my honest opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beech27 Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 I could spend the rest of my life reading every work listed in the Stanford Companion to Victorian Fiction too, totally excluding anything written since. But people are still writing books, so I'm not going to do that. One of those guys is getting a main event push in a promotion I've followed really closely for years, and enjoy staying current with. And he's been great in that role. So... I'm going to watch. In case this sounds too petulant, here's one of my favorite riffs (ha) on this phenomenon. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 The difference is that most people touting ZSJ haven't seen basically any old (and I personally think far superior) UK stuff (especially if you exclude just Johnny Saint matches). It's not that there's not new stuff being created or that people like to be part of something that's currently occurring so that they can feel connected, etc. It's that people haven't done the legwork and they're just consuming large amounts of a carbon copy instead of the more visceral originals because it's easier and more convenient and helps with their sense of identify. I'm not necessarily saying that's true with you, but I don't think either the Stanford Companion to Victorian Fiction or Rust in Peace applies here. I find a severe lack of reverence and basic knowledge for these amazing matches we have from the 60s and 70s in most current UK fans. It bleeds over. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beech27 Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 That's fair. My (admittedly, hyperbole laden) point is just that context can be an impossible horizon; there will always be classics that go unexplored by even the most dedicated fans... and most fans are not that, and will never be, regardless of medium. It doesn't really bother me. Maybe (probably) wrestling has a more profound recency bias than music or literature, but I don't think the opportunity cost here plays out in such a way that either you're watching ZSJ or Zoltan Boscik exclusively. (I would also suggest more people are likely to work backwards from Zack than would ever find that stuff without him, but that's an impossible thing to measure.) (Identity based fandom does have its host of problems, but that's... a lot to talk about. And so universal I'm not sure where I'd even start.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kropotkin's Beard Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 7 hours ago, Matt D said: The difference is that most people touting ZSJ haven't seen basically any old (and I personally think far superior) UK stuff (especially if you exclude just Johnny Saint matches). It's not that there's not new stuff being created or that people like to be part of something that's currently occurring so that they can feel connected, etc. It's that people haven't done the legwork and they're just consuming large amounts of a carbon copy instead of the more visceral originals because it's easier and more convenient and helps with their sense of identify. I'm not necessarily saying that's true with you, but I don't think either the Stanford Companion to Victorian Fiction or Rust in Peace applies here. I find a severe lack of reverence and basic knowledge for these amazing matches we have from the 60s and 70s in most current UK fans. It bleeds over. Shrug. Watching wrestling in a vacuum has never been my thing. I find it incredibly hard to give a crap about the best match ever without some reason to have an emotional connection to what I'm watching. That's really hard with old stuff that is usually presented out of context on Youtube or wherever. Meanwhile ZSJ is working now, in places where I can actually see him perform live (which is a bit of a knock on the old WoS chaps), doing things which aren't really done all that much these days, is easy to watch and fun. No, he's not doing much new but that hardly makes him unique in professional wrestling. He does what he does well, that's enough for me. I don't need to know the guy who influenced the guy who influenced ZSJ to enjoy him. There's only so many hours in a week I'm going to watch wrestling. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infinit Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 On 26/03/2018 at 8:50 AM, Matt D said: The difference is that most people touting ZSJ haven't seen basically any old (and I personally think far superior) UK stuff (especially if you exclude just Johnny Saint matches). It's not that there's not new stuff being created or that people like to be part of something that's currently occurring so that they can feel connected, etc. It's that people haven't done the legwork and they're just consuming large amounts of a carbon copy instead of the more visceral originals because it's easier and more convenient and helps with their sense of identify. I'm not necessarily saying that's true with you, but I don't think either the Stanford Companion to Victorian Fiction or Rust in Peace applies here. I find a severe lack of reverence and basic knowledge for these amazing matches we have from the 60s and 70s in most current UK fans. It bleeds over. With all due respect...that's ridiculous. And reads tres douchey. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 4 minutes ago, Infinit said: With all due respect...that's ridiculous. And reads tres douchey. Not that it matters, but I'm generally ok with you having that viewpoint, and back to Beech's point, I'm certainly glad if someone sees ZSJ using the Jim Breaks' special and seeks those matches out (tragic as the current situation may be). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stefanie Without Stefanie Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 The only thing that really bothered me about Zack Sabre Jr. was when I found out there was no Zack Sabre Sr. Then I realized that it was a silly thing to get bothered about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiji Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 I was having a laugh at the lack of a senior during the Long Beach show for some reason. Missed opportunity for some Mitch Conner-level shenanigans imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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