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UFC Fight Night 124: Stephens vs. Choi (1/14/2018) - St. Louis, MO (Scottrade Center)


Elsalvajeloco

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I don't think it's head movement as much as DHC is a product of his environment. I was a little harsh towards him prior to UFC 206 in regards to that, but I will be lenient in this case because this defense problem is too overstated. The reason why Korea can produce the Korean Zombies, Superboys, and Hamderlei Silvas of the world is because defensive responsibility is not a big priority. That go forward mentality has won them several fights. In this case, the opponent and the level of opponent is the reason why Choi didn't win as much as getting hit too much. This time last year people were saying Korean Zombie was back and he only beat Dennis Bermudez. TKZ is a flawed fighter, but Bermudez is a more flawed and more importantly exceptionally vulnerable fighter. If Choi's return fight was Bermudez, he would've melted Bermudez faster than TKZ did. Choi just happened to be in against a UFC stalwart who has been in every type of fight almost eleven years in the UFC. What hinders Choi the most now is he is a known quantity. If this was his second fight in the UFC, Stephens probably would have been caught offguard and unprepared for DHC's attacks. However, Stephens likely knew everything that Choi was going to throw. And it was going to be boxing match anyway. So where was the mystery? I will also bring this back to another Korean fighter: Dong Hyun Kim (the Stun Gun one). The not giving a fuck factor worked for him in the John Hathaway fight. It was a spectacular, highlight reel finish. The problem is that factor (and same spinning elbow) got him leveled against Tyron Woodley if you remember. It didn't even look real. It looked like something out a Cynthia Rothrock B-movie or a mid 90s Steven Seagal movie. That let me know right there that the whole notion of defense is a big ask for Korean fighters. And again, the level of opponent matters. John Hathaway and Tyron Woodley are on two completely different levels.

I don't know if Korea is ever going to produce a ready made champion level fighter. Right now, I would say Korea is on the same level as a Mexico. They're going to produce plenty of good fighters, but it's going to take a once in a generation type talent to be champion as long as the fighters have certain holes in their game.

As far as DHC being a contender goes, FWIW Choi still has to do his mandatory 2 year military service. So it doesn't matter ultimately if he won this fight or not. That would still very much interrupt his career since he won't get a chance to fight in 2019 and 2020. The good thing is he will get a respite from these brutal fights, but he will still be the same fighter as he was before that time off. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Hail Sabin said:

Aldana looked great in her fight it will be interesting to see who they match her with in her next fight. 

 

I would like Irene to go to a gym where she can really work on her grappling. She is a big bantamweight, and from the Bernardo fight, she has natural strength when it comes to defensive wrestling and gaining position in scrambles. Even in the Evinger fight where she struggled with stopping takedowns, she showed good instincts that you normally don't see from fighters who strictly are good with one dimension of their game. If she worked on her grappling, she would be a tough out at 135. I sincerely believe it.

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Very true her switching camps to improve her grappling or making Team Grasso bring in a new wrestling coach would be smart. 

I agree with you if she improves that aspect of her game she is one to watch in that division as a future title challenger. 

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I was sorta hoping that Polo would punch that smug smirk off of Frevola's face and I was not disappointed.

I continue to be justified in not falling for the hype of the Korean Superboy.

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On 1/15/2018 at 11:43 AM, Elsalvajeloco said:

I don't think it's head movement as much as DHC is a product of his environment. I was a little harsh towards him prior to UFC 206 in regards to that, but I will be lenient in this case because this defense problem is too overstated. The reason why Korea can produce the Korean Zombies, Superboys, and Hamderlei Silvas of the world is because defensive responsibility is not a big priority. That go forward mentality has won them several fights. In this case, the opponent and the level of opponent is the reason why Choi didn't win as much as getting hit too much. This time last year people were saying Korean Zombie was back and he only beat Dennis Bermudez. TKZ is a flawed fighter, but Bermudez is a more flawed and more importantly exceptionally vulnerable fighter. If Choi's return fight was Bermudez, he would've melted Bermudez faster than TKZ did. Choi just happened to be in against a UFC stalwart who has been in every type of fight almost eleven years in the UFC. What hinders Choi the most now is he is a known quantity. If this was his second fight in the UFC, Stephens probably would have been caught offguard and unprepared for DHC's attacks. However, Stephens likely knew everything that Choi was going to throw. And it was going to be boxing match anyway. So where was the mystery? I will also bring this back to another Korean fighter: Dong Hyun Kim (the Stun Gun one). The not giving a fuck factor worked for him in the John Hathaway fight. It was a spectacular, highlight reel finish. The problem is that factor (and same spinning elbow) got him leveled against Tyron Woodley if you remember. It didn't even look real. It looked like something out a Cynthia Rothrock B-movie or a mid 90s Steven Seagal movie. That let me know right there that the whole notion of defense is a big ask for Korean fighters. And again, the level of opponent matters. John Hathaway and Tyron Woodley are on two completely different levels.

I don't know if Korea is ever going to produce a ready made champion level fighter. Right now, I would say Korea is on the same level as a Mexico. They're going to produce plenty of good fighters, but it's going to take a once in a generation type talent to be champion as long as the fighters have certain holes in their game.

As far as DHC being a contender goes, FWIW Choi still has to do his mandatory 2 year military service. So it doesn't matter ultimately if he won this fight or not. That would still very much interrupt his career since he won't get a chance to fight in 2019 and 2020. The good thing is he will get a respite from these brutal fights, but he will still be the same fighter as he was before that time off. 

 

I think the biggest issue with Choi is that he's a 26-year-old prospect who they decided to match up with veteran killers like he belongs in the cage with them.  That dude fought Cub Swanson and Jeremy Stephens back to back like he's on track to win a championship.  That is like putting the best high school quarterback in a game against the Seahawks defense.  Sure, the high school kid is good, but he doesn't have the depth of knowledge to compete with guys at that level.  Let him learn defense against Ryan Hall or Calvin Kattar and not get smashed in the face by guys like Jeremy Stephens.  

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38 minutes ago, supremebve said:

I think the biggest issue with Choi is that he's a 26-year-old prospect who they decided to match up with veteran killers like he belongs in the cage with them.  That dude fought Cub Swanson and Jeremy Stephens back to back like he's on track to win a championship.  That is like putting the best high school quarterback in a game against the Seahawks defense.  Sure, the high school kid is good, but he doesn't have the depth of knowledge to compete with guys at that level.  Let him learn defense against Ryan Hall or Calvin Kattar and not get smashed in the face by guys like Jeremy Stephens.  

I don't think it was necessarily a bad choice to put him in with Swanson and Stephens even though I obviously had some reservations. He still held his own despite taking a lot of damage and plus, the guy won't be fighting for two years and you might as well get some use out of him. My thing is, as I pointed out is, I don't know if he can ever be that guy. What's going to nudge him in that direction? I mean if a kid is playing HS football on a high level in Florida, Texas, Georgia, or Louisiana, he might only need 1 or 2 years on the NCAA D1 level . A really talented 20 or 21 year old quarterback can shred a depleted Legion of Boom. Let's be honest. However, DHC is like a running back that's a rugby convert from like Australia or New Zealand (like the guy who played for the 49ers) who may only have 1 year of organized American football under his belt. He's not a prospect as much as he is a project. With him being a Korean fighter and having those deficiencies that I mentioned, you already understand it's going to be an uphill climb. If he turns into a solid contributor, then that's what he will be. If he becomes a top 5 running back or becomes great in a tandem RB system, then that's a hell of a boon for you because you probably got him in the 3rd or 4th round. However, you're leaning towards the former and not the latter if your expectations are realistic. Right now, Choi is there to provide exciting and fun fights especially with him not being available come this time next year and the year after that. The Stephens fight was fun while it lasted and they popped a really good number. So I couldn't say Jeremy Stephens was a bad opponent for him.

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I hate to use sweeping generalizations, (particularly when it involves a particular nationality), but I've been watching this stuff a longass time and I don't think we're ever going to see anything but a "fun" fight from a Korean national, unless one has the good sense to come to the States or UK and learn from a coaching staff. The operating principle seems to be "full speed ahead and damn the torpedoes" which sounds good in theory until your face becomes a target for the torpedoes, then, not so much. I've known boxers that thought because they were fast and had a good chin didn't think they needed to worry much about defense, they got their asses handed to them in short order. If you know a guy isn't going to move his head that's an open invitation to tee off on the stupid SOB.

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I think right now (and I'm not saying this because she's in my avatar FWIW) Korea's only hope for a "world champion" is Seo Hee Ham. Atomweight isn't exactly a murderer's row and someone who was already extremely tiny (Herica Tiburcio) was already champion. Based on Tiburcio's recent performances, I would say she's a much better fighter than Tiburcio. She's probably same size as Hamasaki. She's no worse than top 3 already. Ayaka Hamasaki is a really good fighter but I don't think she is like this unbeatable machine. She went 115 and got her lunch ate by Livinha. Unless a whole bunch of strawweights drop to 105, that's a two woman race essentially.

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16 minutes ago, OSJ said:

I hate to use sweeping generalizations, (particularly when it involves a particular nationality), but I've been watching this stuff a longass time and I don't think we're ever going to see anything but a "fun" fight from a Korean national, unless one has the good sense to come to the States or UK and learn from a coaching staff. The operating principle seems to be "full speed ahead and damn the torpedoes" which sounds good in theory until your face becomes a target for the torpedoes, then, not so much. I've known boxers that thought because they were fast and had a good chin didn't think they needed to worry much about defense, they got their asses handed to them in short order. If you know a guy isn't going to move his head that's an open invitation to tee off on the stupid SOB.

The problem with this is that Choi tried to fight differently in this fight.  He won the first round by controlling the distance with leg kicks and his jab.  The issue he ran into is that he was fighting a fighter who is experienced enough to see what he was trying to do, bite down on his mouth piece and start countering his strategy.  Choi doesn't have the ability to adjust on the fly like that yet.  I see what you guys are saying with The Korean Zombie and other Korean fighters, but I think Choi has a bigger upside than any of the Korean fighters we've seen.  

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55 minutes ago, supremebve said:

The problem with this is that Choi tried to fight differently in this fight.  He won the first round by controlling the distance with leg kicks and his jab.  The issue he ran into is that he was fighting a fighter who is experienced enough to see what he was trying to do, bite down on his mouth piece and start countering his strategy.  Choi doesn't have the ability to adjust on the fly like that yet.  I see what you guys are saying with The Korean Zombie and other Korean fighters, but I think Choi has a bigger upside than any of the Korean fighters we've seen.  

I wouldn't disagree with that but by upside what do we mean? If you mean top 10-15 FW, he's already there essentially. I think he go in against any featherweight and have a respectable performance at least. There are plenty of top 10-15 fighters whether you use the UFC rankings or someone else's rankings who are only there on the strength of maybe one or two performances and will have trouble replicating that success. I think DHC is dynamic enough in that one dimension to beat plenty of fighters. Once we get into championship talk, that's when it's debatable.

BTW I would keep him away from Ryan Hall. I don't think that's a sexy fight for anyone. It's impossible to look good against him even if you win.

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11 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I wouldn't disagree with that but by upside what do we mean? If you mean top 10-15 FW, he's already there essentially. I think he go in against any featherweight and have a respectable performance at least. There are plenty of top 10-15 fighters whether you use the UFC rankings or someone else's rankings who are only there on the strength of maybe one or two performances and will have trouble replicating that success. I think DHC is dynamic enough in that one dimension to beat plenty of fighters. Once we get into championship talk, that's when it's debatable.

BTW I would keep him away from Ryan Hall. I don't think that's a sexy fight for anyone. It's impossible to look good against him even if you win.

By upside I mean, he can be a championship contender if he continues to develop.  Is there any reason he can't be Jeremy Stephens in 10 years?  He's a talented kid with crazy knockout power, but is green as grass.  He was competitive with both Stephens and Swanson until those dudes decided to stop fighting his fight and impose their will.  Both of those dudes are in the position to do that based on experience.  If any of those guys fought Choi when they were 26, I think I'd pick Choi over either of them.  He has the physical tools, he can compete with veteran fighters, he just doesn't have the kind of game that allows him to adjust midfight.  Ryan Hall is someone who may or may not beat Choi, but he is someone who is closer to his level of experience who will test him, but not break him.  Choi is tough as nails and pretty talented, but he's not Max Holloway or Cody Garbrandt. . .  matter of fact, he's not Mike Perry.  There is a lot of talent in the 10-20 level fighters at FW, let those guys prove themselves until they break away from the pack.  Don't put him in fights where he can get knocked stupid by hitters like Swanson and Stephens in fights where he has the talent to compete, but not experience to win.  I don't think it helps him at all.

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34 minutes ago, supremebve said:

By upside I mean, he can be a championship contender if he continues to develop.  Is there any reason he can't be Jeremy Stephens in 10 years?  He's a talented kid with crazy knockout power, but is green as grass.  He was competitive with both Stephens and Swanson until those dudes decided to stop fighting his fight and impose their will.  Both of those dudes are in the position to do that based on experience.  If any of those guys fought Choi when they were 26, I think I'd pick Choi over either of them.  He has the physical tools, he can compete with veteran fighters, he just doesn't have the kind of game that allows him to adjust midfight.  Ryan Hall is someone who may or may not beat Choi, but he is someone who is closer to his level of experience who will test him, but not break him.  Choi is tough as nails and pretty talented, but he's not Max Holloway or Cody Garbrandt. . .  matter of fact, he's not Mike Perry.  There is a lot of talent in the 10-20 level fighters at FW, let those guys prove themselves until they break away from the pack.  Don't put him in fights where he can get knocked stupid by hitters like Swanson and Stephens in fights where he has the talent to compete, but not experience to win.  I don't think it helps him at all.

I wouldn't put him in against Ryan Hall. I doubt they would either. 

If Cub was still just at CSW, I would pick Choi over him. If it's a young Cub with Joel Diaz and Jackson/Wink, I would have said the same things I said prior to 206. I would still pick a younger Stephens over DHC like I did in the picks thread. Stephens always brings it. Might not win and probably won't have the soundest strategy, but he always comes to fight. There is nothing that leads me to believe Choi would beat him unless he went to Team Alpha Male and improved, which certainly could happen if he wanted to go to TAM.

Cub and Stephens probably wouldn't be first picks for opponents but I certainly don't see them as something that didn't help him. I think a fight with Ryan Hall fits more in that category because it wouldn't fun to watch (he's 0-2 on entertaining fights) and we might get some bizarre scoring. 

I think a fight with Zabit Magomedsharipov would not be a good decision at all because it would expose him as not being as good a prospect as people might think DHC is. I think he gets dusted with the quickness once Zabit gets going. If Bektic got on top of him, that probably would not lead to good things. So besides obviously the two guys fighting for the belt next, the only guys I wouldn't put him against would be other prospects. 

As is, he will probably gets a rebound opponent and/or fights one more notable fighter before going to do his military service. All the momentum he would gain is going to be lost anyway so I definitely don't see why these last two fights hurt him. TKZ's last fight was Aldo before he came back against Bermudez and people were still hyped. I see the exact same thing happening whenever DHC comes back. With the conscription, the guys don't really do a whole bunch anyway so he can work on improving stuff. IIRC in a interview before the Stephens fight, that's what he said he plans on doing. It's a giant reset button on his career. Hopefully, he decides to go to a TAM or AKA where he will be better for it when he comes back. That's the only way I see him developing.

 

 

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