UFC 165: Jones vs. Gustafsson (9/21/2013) - Toronto, Ontario, Canada (Air Canada Centre)

[supremebve]

 

 

What are the other best LHW Title fights?  My favorite was FrankShamrock/Ortiz.. Also, how did I just notice this. the youngest guy Jones fought in a title fight was Shogun, Why does the LHW division have no young contenders? Gus seems like the only one.

 Despite the result, I thought Machida/Shogun 1 was a great fight.  It was amazing watching Shogun dissect Machida's style.  Same thing with Randy Couture dismantling Liddell in their first fight.  And I always loved Rampage vs. Dan Henderson.

Yes, these fights along with Forrest/Rampage are far and away the best LHW title fights of all time.

 

Was Hendo/Rampage for the title?  That was a really good back and forth fight, and the last time Rampage looked like a competent wrestler. 

 

I thought Jon Jones won, but Gustafsson gave him absolutely everything he could handle.  I have no idea how Gustafsson was still standing at the end of that fight.  Jones entire offense in the 4th and 5th seemed to be nothing but spinning elbows to his face and left kicks to his head.  I can see how someone could think that Gustafsson won, but calling it a robbery is a little much.  It was a highly contested fight that came down to the fact that the judges thought Jones' kicks in the 2nd round were more effective than Gustafsson's punches.  The fact that Jones couldn't get the fight to the ground is what surprised me the most, he usually has no trouble putting guys on the ground and smashing their skulls into itty bitty little pieces.

[Stevie Ray Von Erich]

I just think a split decision was more accurate to the truth of the fight. As everyone has been pointing out, it was very close and a split decision would have more accurately reflected my own opinion in the very least and made me feel "less wrong" about thinking Gus had done enough in the first three rounds to survive the last two and win.

 

Again, regardless, I think it was a great fight. Enough that I felt compelled to venture over here after the result and vent a little. I think Jones earning the most defenses ever is great for the title and the UFC and hope we get a rematch sometime sooner than later.

[The Natural]

Just watched it.Ironically, round 4 was Gus's best round up until he almost got knocked out.I give Gus round 1 and 3 pretty definitively, and Jones 4 and 5 pretty definitively. It just comes down to your impression of the second, and I could see that going either way.Now, I heard on twitter that the Doctor wanted to stop the fight after the fourth due to the cut over Jones's eye, but didn't because of the pleadings of Jones and McCarthy. I guess its good that it didn't get stopped, but dubious non-stoppages and dubious decisions are just no bueno.

 

I'm with you on all you say. Gus was winning the fourth round till the spinning elbow which almost knocked him out so Jones won that round back.

 

I just think a split decision was more accurate to the truth of the fight. As everyone has been pointing out, it was very close and a split decision would have more accurately reflected my own opinion in the very least and made me feel "less wrong" about thinking Gus had done enough in the first three rounds to survive the last two and win.

 

I came across the mmatorch.com scorecard which was 50-45 Jones later changed to 48-47 Jones. Damn.

 

---

 

If we extend the question to UFC Championship fights outside the Light Heavyweight Division, the only one I'd have above this one is Frankie Edgar vs. Gray Maynard at UFC 125: Resolution. I'm a big fan of that fight, it was my 2011 Fight of the Year. I'd also possibly have Randy Couture vs. Pedro Rizzo at UFC 31: Locked and Loaded above Jones/Gustafsson as well.

[The Natural]

Jon Jones and Alexander Gustafsson in hospital:

 

[epwar]

LETHAL WEAPON reboot time!

[Antacular]

Main was by far one of the best fights I've ever seen, completely shocked at the awesomeness. I had it 48-47 Alex, but I'm probably biased as I can't stand Jones, especially since he beat Shogun for the title at the first and only UFC event I've ever been to. IMHO, I've always believed Jones' domination to be rooted in his insane reach, most evident in the sheer amount of elbows he uses, which he throws as if they were jabs. Gustafsson was the first guy he's faced that had an almost comparable reach, and he gave Bones a run for his money. Gustafsson's offense and defense regarding takedowns were a thing of beauty. Will gladly pay another $60 for a rematch.

[tigertooth]

I just think a split decision was more accurate to the truth of the fight. As everyone has been pointing out, it was very close and a split decision would have more accurately reflected my own opinion in the very least and made me feel "less wrong" about thinking Gus had done enough in the first three rounds to survive the last two and win.

 

Something else to keep in mind: Meltzer, for instance, scored it 49-46, yet said it was a very close fight that could have gone either way.  Point being that 49-46 might look on paper like a commanding win, but that's not necessarily the case. 

 

It comes down to the flaws of the scoring system (or "idiosyncrasies" if you prefer).  Depending on how the fight goes, you can legitimately think a guy won handily while scoring it 48-47 and you can think a guy barely eked out a win while scoring 50-45.  And a split decision doesn't necessarily mean the fight was close; it may just mean one of the judges was in outer space.  (or, even worse, two of them)

[Basara]

Loved the fight, i thought Gustafsson won but admittedly i didn't like Jones so maybe a little favoritism in a very close fight. I kind of got a Silva/Sonnen vibe from it in that Gustafsson didn't go in fearing Jones reputation and made him look human. Like the guy or not you have to respect him for that fight. If only he never opened his mouth in interviews i'd probably be a fan after that.

 

There are problems with scoring, ignoring the judges themselves. You can in theory have a guy barley just win 3 rounds doing no real damage and get his ass kicked for the next 2 yet would still win. I don't know how you fix the system though. 10-8 aren't given out that often and even then, if they were used more, would create new problems. How many fights would end in a draw if 10-8 rounds were more encouraged? I never got people thinking a fight should be a split decision. You cant have 3 opinions yourself, 2 conflicting with the other, you either think someone won or it was a draw.

[supremebve]

Loved the fight, i thought Gustafsson won but admittedly i didn't like Jones so maybe a little favoritism in a very close fight. I kind of got a Silva/Sonnen vibe from it in that Gustafsson didn't go in fearing Jones reputation and made him look human. Like the guy or not you have to respect him for that fight. If only he never opened his mouth in interviews i'd probably be a fan after that.

 

There are problems with scoring, ignoring the judges themselves. You can in theory have a guy barley just win 3 rounds doing no real damage and get his ass kicked for the next 2 yet would still win. I don't know how you fix the system though. 10-8 aren't given out that often and even then, if they were used more, would create new problems. How many fights would end in a draw if 10-8 rounds were more encouraged? I never got people thinking a fight should be a split decision. You cant have 3 opinions yourself, 2 conflicting with the other, you either think someone won or it was a draw.

The scoring system is like democracy, it is the worst system ever...except for all the rest of them.  With that said, you have a point.  I think that Jones won round 2 marginally, as well as 4 and 5 more dominantly.  Gustafsson won rounds 1 and 3 pretty dominantly and was moving towards winning 4 until he got brained by that spinning elbow.  Watching the fight Gustafsson probably won more of the fight than Jones, but broken into 5 minute rounds Jones won three of the rounds.  There were no 10-8 rounds in this fight, and if there was it would be round 4 when Gustafsson could barely stand by the end.  Is the judging critera imperfect? Yes, but the fighters know what it is going in, and up until now we haven't found a better system.  I want an instant rematch for this fight, and hopefully it is another barn burner.

[Basara]

 

Loved the fight, i thought Gustafsson won but admittedly i didn't like Jones so maybe a little favoritism in a very close fight. I kind of got a Silva/Sonnen vibe from it in that Gustafsson didn't go in fearing Jones reputation and made him look human. Like the guy or not you have to respect him for that fight. If only he never opened his mouth in interviews i'd probably be a fan after that.

 

There are problems with scoring, ignoring the judges themselves. You can in theory have a guy barley just win 3 rounds doing no real damage and get his ass kicked for the next 2 yet would still win. I don't know how you fix the system though. 10-8 aren't given out that often and even then, if they were used more, would create new problems. How many fights would end in a draw if 10-8 rounds were more encouraged? I never got people thinking a fight should be a split decision. You cant have 3 opinions yourself, 2 conflicting with the other, you either think someone won or it was a draw.

The scoring system is like democracy, it is the worst system ever...except for all the rest of them.  With that said, you have a point.  I think that Jones won round 2 marginally, as well as 4 and 5 more dominantly.  Gustafsson won rounds 1 and 3 pretty dominantly and was moving towards winning 4 until he got brained by that spinning elbow.  Watching the fight Gustafsson probably won more of the fight than Jones, but broken into 5 minute rounds Jones won three of the rounds.  There were no 10-8 rounds in this fight, and if there was it would be round 4 when Gustafsson could barely stand by the end.  Is the judging critera imperfect? Yes, but the fighters know what it is going in, and up until now we haven't found a better system.  I want an instant rematch for this fight, and hopefully it is another barn burner.

 

Yeah the systems never going to be perfect since in the end it comes down to an opinion. And the more you add to it and complicate things the worse it will get. If you cant get it right in the simplest form what chance is there adding a bunch of new factors into it. 

 

I think it was Machida/Rampage (if i'm remembering it right, only watched it the once) Pretty much nothing happened for 2 rounds and Rampage was given them (split decision maybe?) then in the 3rd Machida got a knock down and did some damage. The only significant strikes of the fight, yet since Rampage was given the first 2 for doing slightly more than nothing the decision goes his way. Under Pride scoring, where they judge it as a whole, i always thought Machida would have won that fight. Maybe adding an additional 10 point system at the end to judge the fight overall would help in some cases and also stop guys from just trying to win the majority of the rounds then coasting at the end. So a 3 round fight would be up to 40 points, 10 for each round and 10 for overall. But like i said, the more you add, the more it complicates things, and the worse it may get.

[S.K.o.S.]

Ironically, round 4 was Gus's best round up until he almost got knocked out. 

 

Anyone know how much time was left in round 4 when Jones hit that elbow?

[Elsalvajeloco]

It couldn't have been more than 30 or 40 seconds.

[S.K.o.S.]

Ok.  It just wasn't so clear to me that Jones won that round. Obviously he almost got a KO there, and Gustafsson was probably saved by the round ending, but like... if Gustafsson outstrikes Jones for the first 4:30 and then Jones is dominant for the last 0:30, I'm not sure how you score that.

 

I did have Gustafsson winning rounds 1 and 3, and Jones winning 2 and 5, fwiw.

[Elsalvajeloco]

It's weird because the inverse has happened plenty of times in boxing (where 10-8 is much clearer). One guy will get a knockdown in the first 45 seconds to make 10-8 in his favor, but get dominated for the remainder of the round. They score it 10-9 for the person that got the knockdown, but you probably should lose the round even if you got the knockdown. Fortunately, those type of things happen in fights where the knockdown is a fluke (Pacquiao vs. Mosley) and have no actual bearing on the outcome.

[The Natural]

Full scorecards for the main event released:

 

Judge Chris Lee
Rd. 1: Gustafsson 10-9
Rd. 2: Jones 10-9
Rd. 3: Jones 10-9
Rd. 4: Jones 10-9
Rd. 5: Jones 10-9

 

Judge Richard Bertrand
Rd. 1: Gustafsson 10-9
Rd. 2: Jones 10-9
Rd. 3: Gustafsson 10-9
Rd. 4: Jones 10-9
Rd. 5: Jones 10-9

 

Judge Doug Crosby
Rd. 1: Gustafsson 10-9
Rd. 2: Gustafsson 10-9
Rd. 3: Jones 10-9
Rd. 4: Jones 10-9
Rd. 5: Jones 10-9

 

Credit: msnfoxsports.com

 

Chael Sonnen on Jon Jones vs. Alexander Gustafsson:

 

Chael Sonnen was in-studio for UFC 165's legendary main event, and count him among those who initially believed Alexander Gustafsson dethroned UFC light heavyweight champion Jon Jones.

 

"I had Gustafsson, but I do not dispute the decision," Sonnen said on Monday's 200th episode of The MMA Hour.

 

"It was very close. It could've gone either way. Perhaps if I re-watched it, I'd have a different answer. But when the fight was over, I did think we were going to hear, ‘And new UFC champion.'"

 

Jones entered the fight an overwhelming favorite, but early on, as Gustafsson's size proved to be a major equalizer and the lanky Swede became the first man to take down Jones, it became clear to Sonnen that something special was taking place.

 

"I did think we were witnessing history. And I did think that Jon would shut down and wilt, and he didn't at all," Sonnen said. "Do I respect him even more now? Yes.

 

"Those elbows and the spinning elbows, and the step-in and the lead elbows that Jon landed, you can't practice those. Jon can hit mitts and he can throw those at the air, but the only time you can actually throw those at a target is in a fight. If you do that stuff in practice you won't have any partners. You'll put ‘em out. So for Jon to be that spot-on, that accurate while his eye is bleeding, while he's physically exhausted, while he's stressed and worried about losing his championship, and to still keep finding that target, was really quite remarkable from an athletic standpoint."

 

Jones ultimately eked out a unanimous decision victory, defending his belt by a pair of 48-47 scores, along with a lone 49-46 score. On Monday, Ontario's athletic commission released the full scorecards. Judge Richard Bertrand gave Gustafsson rounds one and three, judge Doug Crosby gave Gustafsson rounds one and two, and the controversial dissenter, judge Chris Lee, gave Jones rounds two through five.

 

Nonetheless, the fight's merits as an instant classic cannot be disputed. Both men displayed tremendous heart throughout a grueling 25-minutes war of attrition, leading Sonnen to call it the greatest fight he's ever seen.

 

"The best fight in history," Sonnen declared. "There's some guys that were saying, ‘This is one of the best fights in the history of the light heavyweight division.' Eh, you don't need to narrow it down that far. That's the best fight in the light heavyweight division history, I don't think there's any argument there. And you know, we do have short terms memories.

 

"Next week we see another great fight and we declare it the greatest fight in history. Greatness is something that we have to be reminded of very often as human beings. But with all that said, yes, that's my vote, that's the fight, best of all-time."

 

As Jones and Gustafsson are both just 26 years old, it seems the pair are destined to become rivals, Gustafsson the potential Larry Bird to Jones' Magic Johnson.

 

Credit: mmafighting.com

[The Natural]

John McCarthy on Jones vs. Gustafsson:

 

-- John McCarthy on the MMA Hour Monday noted that the doctor was very close to stopping the fight due to the cut over Jon Jones' eye on Saturday night. He said everyone was asking the doctor not to stop it, including Jones and his corner. John said he told the doctor that it was the fifth round, they should let them finish up, and if it got really bad he promised he'd take Jones back over to the doctor for another examination. Had the doctor stopped it, Alexander Gustaffson would be UFC light heavyweight champion right now. McCarthy said he felt it was even going into the fifth round but that Jones did enough in that round to win him the fight.

 

Credit: f4wonline.com

 

Dave Meltzer on Jones vs. Gustafsson:

 

http://www.mmafighting.com/2013/9/22/4759124/fortunes-changed-for-five-at-ufc-165

[glfpunk]

 

"It should have been a split decision" – Anyone who makes this comment should immediately be ignored on judging for the rest of their natural lives. Judges have no idea what the other judges are scoring or thinking. They are all independent. You can say that in a three-round fight it should have been 29-28, but even in the closest of fights, all three judges can be in agreement of who won and there is nothing wrong with the judging

 

 

This times a million.  People that say this need their head examined or at least have things explained to them so they see how ridiculous it sounds to say that judges should have disagreed with each other.   

[RonL21]

The only thing I have a problem with is that 49-46 card. No way Jones won four rounds.

[The Natural]

[The Natural]

With the talk about Jon Jones's next opponent in this thread, I thought the answer should go here:

 

"UFC light heavyweight champion Jon Jones' next title defense will come against No. 1 contender Glover Teixeira, likely on Feb. 1 in Newark, N.J.UFC president Dana White confirmed Jones' next opponent to ESPN.com on Wednesday. According to White, Jones personally requested to fight Teixeira next."That's what the champ wants," White said. "We'll probably have that fight on the Super Bowl card in New Jersey."'

 

Credit: espn.go.com

[AxB]

People who don't like the 10 point must system, jump on the 20 point must. Round winner gets 20, clear loser gets 18. If it's a 'Could have gone either way' round, 20-19 to the guy who edged it. If it's dominant like a 10-8, 20-16. If it's dominant, but not that dominant, 20-17. Much more flexible system, see?

[LethalStriker]

The 10 point must system would be fine if any of the judges would ever have the balls to score a round anything but 10-9.  The 20 point must system isn't the answer if none of the judges ever score a fight anything but a 20-19.  Judges are too afraid of a fight ending in a draw and not being asked back to judging an event again.  If a fight ends in a draw it sucks but hey if the fight really was a draw then you need to deal with it and the judges shouldn't get persecuted for giving what in their opinions was in fact a draw.

[twiztor]

People who don't like the 10 point must system, jump on the 20 point must. Round winner gets 20, clear loser gets 18. If it's a 'Could have gone either way' round, 20-19 to the guy who edged it. If it's dominant like a 10-8, 20-16. If it's dominant, but not that dominant, 20-17. Much more flexible system, see?

 

The 10 point must system would be fine if any of the judges would ever have the balls to score a round anything but 10-9.  The 20 point must system isn't the answer if none of the judges ever score a fight anything but a 20-19.

 

i'd go the other way. make it a "5 point must system". Winner gets 5. Loser gets 4 if it's "could go either way", 3 if it's a clear advantage, and 2 if it's damn near stopped.

but yes, the problem with this is that the judges have to be able to effectively use it.

 

i've never gotten the point of a 10 point system that has never seen one person get less than 6. If a 10-2 round doesn't exist, then why have all of those points available?

[MarcosLoura]

Yeah, having the numbers go up to 10 but never scoring anything but 10-9's and the occasional 10-8's doesn't make much sense.

Judges being shitty is also not that great.

[Disposition]

 

With the talk about Jon Jones's next opponent in this thread, I thought the answer should go here:

 

"UFC light heavyweight champion Jon Jones' next title defense will come against No. 1 contender Glover Teixeira, likely on Feb. 1 in Newark, N.J.UFC president Dana White confirmed Jones' next opponent to ESPN.com on Wednesday. According to White, Jones personally requested to fight Teixeira next."That's what the champ wants," White said. "We'll probably have that fight on the Super Bowl card in New Jersey."'

 

Credit: espn.go.com

 

Smart move by Jones. He gets more time to work on his game before defending against Gus and continue trying to clean out the division. Giving Gus an immediate rematch is a risky move considering how much better he matches up against Teixeira.