2018 INDIE WRESTLING THREAD

[sabremike]

7 hours ago, mattdangerously said:

Who would have thought that suing the alleged rape victim that you've already been treating like dirt would backfire so horribly?

Look at it this way: in the aparrently unlikely case that he has been wronged his suit makes sense. In the aparrently likely case that he did something wrong him filing this suit will bite him square in the ass and end his career entirely.

[EricG]

On 2/16/2018 at 4:28 PM, RIPPA said:

 

Shawn Schultz had the same sort of announcement this weekend. Retiring suddenly due to neck injury concerns. 

Really well-traveled guy on the indies that never really got to work for a top promotion. 

 

[Jiji]

During my weekly Wednesday night rasslin' binge with a friend this past week and we watched WALTER vs. Thatcher from Progress Chapter 62. I've seen a lot of brutal WALTER matches the past year or two but this is the only one that challenges the Dragunov WXW classic from last year's tournament in terms of gruesomeness. These two, WALTER in particular, just beat the piss out of each other relentlessly. A chop to the forehead, whipping a hand against the ring post full throttle, brutal uppercuts and chops all around. If you like mean guys hitting each other hard and bringing the intensity, this is the match for you and will be a low key MOTYC. 

We also watched a few matches from RevPro's High Stakes show. The tag title main event of Moustache Mountain and Suzuki-gun disappointed. Was a lot of touring Suzuki throughout the first two-thirds of the match where he no sold and basically refused to bump, and Zack doing his deadpan tough guy face (my least favourite part of ZSJ's routine, a routine I really do love) while he kicked around Seven on the outside. The last third of the match was much better but not enough to bring it above "good/pretty good" territory for me and overall a big disappointment. EVIL/SANADA vs. Aussie Open wasn't anything special. Kyle Fletcher is my new favourite punching bag of wrestling. Such a punchable face, perhaps the MOST punchable face. It's like he's a teenage Miz with greasy, stringy long hair on top and shaved sides. The worst. EVIL didn't hit him enough. I do enjoy Fletcher's tag partner being the most ordinary "dude" one could see. What a team.

[Shibata Is My Homie]

18 hours ago, cubbymark said:

So, despite AAW claiming they were no longer going to book Michael Elgin as a result of recent allegations, and with the uproar that took place at the Friday Pro Wrestling Revolver show he showed up at, guess who showed up at AAW last night? The promoter said that since it was due to Elgin that they were able to book Tetsuya Naito, they felt obligated to have him on the show. 

A lot of people were pissed. 

Has anyone seen the video or even find the video yet of the crowd saying "Fuck Michael Elgin" ?

[Michael Sweetser]

I like that AAW was fine apologizing AFTER they had drawn the house.  

[Marty Sugar]

The problem with a crowd angrily chanting is that idiot promoters and wrestlers will call that "great heat," and reward Elgin.

EDIT: And "Naito would only ride with Elgin," was a weak excuse. As someone said on Twitter, give Elgin his trans money and tell him to fuck off until the show is over. Pay him to be Naito's driver, no problem.

[Jiji]

But like 12 people turned their backs on his match!

lol, it's already happened. I generally really like Meltzer but he's so out of touch on this.

 

[mattdangerously]

Meltzer's been bending over backwards to defend Elgin lately.  It's pretty unethical behavior for a "journalist", honestly.

[Guest Edwin]

5 hours ago, Oyaji said:

During my weekly Wednesday night rasslin' binge with a friend this past week and we watched WALTER vs. Thatcher from Progress Chapter 62. I've seen a lot of brutal WALTER matches the past year or two but this is the only one that challenges the Dragunov WXW classic from last year's tournament in terms of gruesomeness. These two, WALTER in particular, just beat the piss out of each other relentlessly. A chop to the forehead, whipping a hand against the ring post full throttle, brutal uppercuts and chops all around. If you like mean guys hitting each other hard and bringing the intensity, this is the match for you and will be a low key MOTYC. 

Just watched this... I can't see any match eclipsing this as my favorite match this year. Unbelievable match. Watch it if you haven't.

[Archibald]

On 2018-02-14 at 8:48 PM, Keep Calm, Akira Hokuto On said:

I don't really feel like I can take the high ground on this one.  I'd prefer they didn't book Elgin.  On the other hand, I suspect Elgin is probably not the worse scumbag/pervert/drug addict they've booked over the years.  Probably not even close.  And Ian Rotten is possibly the scummiest person you can find in a scummy industry.  None of that has ever stopped me from buying IWA-MS shows if I liked the card.  Hell, in the mid-2000's, IWA-MS was a damn good promotion and most of the big names of the time (Punk, Styles, Joe, Hero, etc.) were working there.

I don't have a problem with people taking a stand against Elgin, but it probably isn't in the top dozen controversial IWAMS doings.

Realistically speaking there are only two reasons why this thing has gotten out of hand:

1. Elgin got himself a bit of a name while working NJPW shows.

2. His brand of awfulness is "popular" in the mainstream culture now.

Does anyone, outside of hardcore wrestling fan community, even know who Ian Rotten is? Attacking or boycotting him won't make it feel like you are part of mainstream cultural wave. I really like that people are now being more aware of sexual harassment/assault problems, but at the same time it feels like this entire thing is being turned into some sort of sick parody where it is okay to be an asshole as long as you are not popular or if your brand of awfulness is not in the news now.

It boggles my mind how same promotion can work with Ian without problems, but when it comes to Elgin they suddenly have to take high ground.

[Beech27]

There's really no way to predict--or even explain, after the fact--when an issue becomes an issue, but I think there are a couple somewhat unique factors at play, regarding Elgin.

1) There are receipts. People can rationalize away any amount of testimony, but you can read the guy being a scumbag in his own words, and hear him talk about some pretty sleazy behavior in that infamous shoot interview. Of course there are allegations of worse than he explicitly discusses anywhere, but he's still not a very good character witness for himself, and that matters.

2) He hasn't exactly been a fan-favorite for a while, due to stuff like the baseball thing, appearing to whine about Adam Cole doing way better as ROH's top guy, etc. That there are DMs of him complaining about Jeff Cobb only compounded this reputation, and also gave more publicity to the more serious allegations. Fans who only care about wrestling things suddenly had a wrestling thing to care about, and a point of entry for the rest, right when they were disinclined to like Elgin.

Ideally we'd evaluate things more neutrally than that, but we're all prone to some degree of bias and hypocrisy, excusing away more for our "problematic faves" than we would for others.

Anyway I do need to see more WALTER matches. He's probably the most hyped guy I'm least familiar with. And I like Thatcher a lot, so that's an easy and obvious way to start, both with WALTER and WXW more broadly.

[EVA]

I feel like WALTER is a guy I’d be spending a lot of time watching next month if March Madness was still a thing.  RIP

[Matt D]

Almost everything he did last year is behind a pay wall though

[Spritenaut 32]

6 hours ago, Archibald said:

Does anyone, outside of hardcore wrestling fan community, even know who Ian Rotten is?

I imagine you might be acquainted with Ian - or at least, John Benson Williams - if you live in the area and work in law enforcement or as a drug dealer.

[hammerva]

Really the strategy going forward with Elgin is to put him in matches where the opponent is someone people really want to see.   You are asking fans who want nothing to do with Elgin to screw over the main reason you went to the show to begin with.    Basically testing your real beliefs.

And I love how we NOW think that is just "good heat" but when the WWE does it over and over again (see Eddy Guerrero, the Paige Reid Flair promo, etc) then it is just disgusting taste.  Someone favoritism is showing right now

 

[sabremike]

44 minutes ago, hammerva said:

Really the strategy going forward with Elgin is to put him in matches where the opponent is someone people really want to see.   You are asking fans who want nothing to do with Elgin to screw over the main reason you went to the show to begin with.    Basically testing your real beliefs.

And I love how we NOW think that is just "good heat" but when the WWE does it over and over again (see Eddy Guerrero, the Paige Reid Flair promo, etc) then it is just disgusting taste.  Someone favoritism is showing right now

 

In the Observer update covering this by Meltzer he specifically said Elgin "got heat, and not in a good way".

[Cyanide]

Evolve 101 live thoughts:

Fan of the prelim matches.  Quick, competent work from just about everybody involved, and like the format as a showcase for guys who aren't doing anything else or can come back or move up down the line.

Opening tag match kind of got away from me.  This sounds like a dumb quibble as I think through it, but The End's music kept going for what felt like the first third of the match, which is a minor technical screw-up but was really weird and disorienting live (disclaimer: I'm currently half-deaf in one ear from an upper respiratory virus, so YMMV) and everything after just felt like a brawl stretched out into a slapdash match.

Yehi/Mercer I dug.  Fred Yehi is still the best and now he's out here throwing snap half-nelson whips.  First time seeing Mercer and I liked what he brought to the table.

ZSJ/Dickinson was great.  Dickinson continues to straddle that line between being a convincing big, dumb, violent lug and an actual big, dumb, violent lug.  Sabre is maybe pound-for-pound the best wrestler in the world in making every match feel like a fight for every blow and every hold.

Keith/Tracy no holds barred was actually a bit of a bummer.  Keith Lee was awesome as always, but Hot Sauce was basically made to look like a geek, getting pasted with power shots over and over, and only really able to get any offense off cheap shots to the knee, outside interference, and chair and ladder attacks.  Just kind of a plodding and sloppy bout in general  I don't think I've seen any of their one-on-one matches previously; curious how they match-up in a more standard affair.

Really liked the four-way elimination main event.  Riddle was amazing as always.  Jaka is still great.  You can keep Johnny Gargano; Darby Allin has come on from basically just being a one-note heel the last time I saw him live to a complete wrestler and maybe my favorite never-say-die underdog babyface in the business going into 2018.  Even Austin Theory was very sharp here and looks like he's really thriving in his cocky Evolution/Next Big Thing gimmick under Priscilla Kelly.

[Jiji]

What are your thoughts on Anthony Henry and James Drake? Henry strikes me as your typical mid 2000s small US indie guy doing a tonne of moves that don't matter and comes off like he's playing wrestler. His "in-between stuff" is dreadful. Callihan dragged a good match out of him in PWX, but it was largely Callihan. I'll say his manager is fine though. James Drake is a bit better but needs to be meaner from the EVOLVE matches I've seen him in and gets way too cute for a guy his size. If he doesn't want to be labeled as a big/fat guy, lose weight and wrestle like everybody else. As is, it feels like two regional indie guys that don't really belong in EVOLVE.

Darby is fascinating. One of my friends knows him fairly well through wrestling and guy is pretty much his character 24/7. He's got a bit of Shane Douglas Syndrome in him though, in that he's such a great babyface in the ring but I don't think his character is somebody the average indie fan really wants to get behind. Like he'll be cutting this emotional plea to the audience and he's met with either apathy, a smattering of applause and support, and one or two jerks jeering him and talking shit. So, he's a great underdog in the ring, but I think his natural character screams more heel in that it's not a tonne of people will connect with on an emotional level. We'll see how he continues to develop, but he's one of the most exciting wrestlers in the US right now imo. That Mania weekend match with WALTER could be one of the few indie matches to surpass WALTER/Thatcher this year. Also, it sounds like he's not too far away from an NXT deal either. I don't know how I feel about that. I have more faith in HHH getting the character than I do Vince, lol.

I'll be pretty surprised if Theory isn't in NXT this time next year. He's still so ridiculously young, so they may do what they do with a lot of really talented youngsters and tell them to keep honing their craft and sign them in a year or two down the road. His physique and mechanics are really high end particularly when you take his experience and age into factor. Fucking guy was born in 1997! He's also way better as a heel than generic underdog youngboy that nobody had an attachment to.

I know this is somewhat sacrilegious on DVDVR, but I can't get 100% into Yehi. Some of what he does is great, but most of his act I don't buy and he generally bores me. I haven't been watching much EVOLVE after they left Floslam and I feel like the WWN Club thing is antiquated and am reluctant to join. Was really let down by his 2017 in EVOLVE after digging the odd match I had seen previously and reading all the praise on here for him.

[Cyanide]

I generally think the WorkHorsemen are a fine enough team, if pretty unexceptional.  Definitely agree that Henry has more than a little Davey Richards gene in him.  The last Evolve show I went to opened with him vs Matt Riddle, and it turned into a full-blown NOAH-style overkill/Northern Lights Bombs for nothing near-falls affair.  Actually, I've been catching up on a lot of recent Progress the last few months, and it's hard not to compare them as a team (to their detriment) to Aussie Open as a contemporary indy pairing with a similar size disparity and style.  On that note, I think James Drake could definitely use some more Mark Davis in his game when it comes to balancing the cutesy athletic big man stuff with some good solid size and power work.  (Sidebar: I can't wait for Chapter 63 to hit.  I dig Aussie Open a lot, but from the first chop I saw Mark Davis land, I needed an Atlas division bout with him and WALTER in my life.  I am so ready.)

On the Darby front, I think a lot of indy promos are undercut by just generally shitty, snarky crowd reactions and one-sided call-and-response, but he really does have an insanely magnetic presence as a face.  He's a dude who you completely buy as the lifelong runt and loner and outcast who is putting everything on the line to prove himself and show he can hang with the kind of people who would have never given him a second thought.  To me that's so much more compelling than just having him be a self-destructive weirdo.

Co-sign on Theory's (dammit) evolution as well.  Like Darby, he's a guy I like so much more than the last time I saw him, when he was a super vanilla athletic prospect who nearly killed himself on a guardrail on a springboard moonsault.  So much better as the anti-Tyler Bate.

Postscript on streaming services: I did a free month of WWN Club when it launched and signed up for Demand Progress near the end of last year; caught up on some Evolve shows with the former for a bit, but in general Progress' service, presentation, venues, roster, aesthetic, crowds, ethos, and just about everything are so much better to me for a very similar overall product that (time and money being finite) I ditched WWN before it ever re-upped.  I'll probably be back here and there to catch up on the good stuff (like you said, WALTER vs Darby at Evolve 103 should be bananas), but overall I find the UK indies are smoking the US right now.

 

[Jiji]

I remember the Henry/Riddle match. It was one of, if not the worst Riddle matches I've seen. Just awful dog shit with no psychology. I also remember the Theory moonsault you're talking about. It was one of the first times I'd seen him and my friend and I were busy making fun of his stupid name and "UNPROVEN" and such on his tights, then he hit that moonsault and we almost died.

[NikoBaltimore]

1 hour ago, Oyaji said:

I know this is somewhat sacrilegious on DVDVR, but I can't get 100% into Yehi. Some of what he does is great, but most of his act I don't buy and he generally bores me. I haven't been watching much EVOLVE after they left Floslam and I feel like the WWN Club thing is antiquated and am reluctant to join. Was really let down by his 2017 in EVOLVE after digging the odd match I had seen previously and reading all the praise on here for him.

It's a fair point about his 2017 being a let down.  Right now he seems to be not doing anything noteworthy and I feel he should be.

Went to the show last night and wish I knew @Cyanide was there, but glad that we both dug the show.  Him and @Oyaji covered the main points on the show which I generally agree with.  The only thing is I wish they didn't announce the elimination match was number one contender.  It became to me a foregone conclusion that it'd be Riddle winning, but the match was still pretty good.  As for Henry/Drake as a team I liked them well enough but the case against Henry was spot-on.  I don't know how long he's been doing this but he really needs to whittle his offense down to stuff that makes sense for what he's trying to get across.  From what I saw of him in Evolve and MCW he comes across as a guy still trying to figure it out.  Haven't seen much of Drake but while he's good he didn't show much to impress me.

The prelim matches were good, and I was surprised how much I liked Jarek 1:20's match against Jason Kincaid.  Pretty good match and I love his magician gimmick, and holy shit the voice on Candy Cartwright.  I met both of them and they're super nice people.  He wasn't sure if he had an injured foot and was worried about how he'd look out there.  But I didn't see any issues with movement and he seemed relieved by that.  One of my best friends was actually the guy driving the wrestlers everywhere and while he's not a wrestling fan at all (he was helping Trevin) he had a good time hanging with them.  They had breakfast at a Dennys with William Regal there along with everybody else.  He didn't understand why I was super jealous but knowing one of my friends had breakfast with them all (Regal paid for it) is astounding.  After the show they went to Jimmy's and Horseshoe Casino.  I really need to try and get in on this next time they come around.

Oh, and I also met Regal before the show.  He is the definition of a class act and is an incredibly nice guy.  He explained why he never tried acting, but he seemed really happy with my compliments about his humor and facial expressions.  Between seeing the Horsemen live Saturday and this it's been a great couple days.

[Cyanide]

11 minutes ago, NikoBaltimore said:

One of my best friends was actually the guy driving the wrestlers everywhere and while he's not a wrestling fan at all (he was helping Trevin) he had a good time hanging with them.  They had breakfast at a Dennys with William Regal there along with everybody else.  He didn't understand why I was super jealous but knowing one of my friends had breakfast with them all (Regal paid for it) is astounding.  After the show they went to Jimmy's and Horseshoe Casino.  I really need to try and get in on this next time they come around.

Holy shit, that sounds like an amazing gig, haha. Definitely jealous as well.

Quote

Oh, and I also met Regal before the show.  He is the definition of a class act and is an incredibly nice guy.  He explained why he never tried acting, but he seemed really happy with my compliments about his humor and facial expressions.  Between seeing the Horsemen live Saturday and this it's been a great couple days.

I've never been one for meet and greets but after seeing him speak I regretted not taking the chance. Literally an ear to ear smile while hanging on his every word. Such a disarming and sweet presence in a business known for blowhards and clowns. He battled with his own demons, but on the whole he's basically everything I want from wrestling, inside the ring and out.

[NikoBaltimore]

10 minutes ago, Cyanide said:

Holy shit, that sounds like an amazing gig, haha. Definitely jealous as well.

I've never been one for meet and greets but after seeing him speak I regretted not taking the chance. Literally an ear to ear smile while hanging on his every word. Such a disarming and sweet presence in a business known for blowhards and clowns. He battled with his own demons, but on the whole he's basically everything I want from wrestling, inside the ring and out.

What gets me is my friend definitely liked Regal when he saw him in the early 2000s, he just doesn't remember him.  I'm sure jogging his memory will help that.  Apparently the seminar they were doing yesterday afternoon also covered ways to help out on the production side and other aspects.  If they do it next time they come around in 6 months I'm signing up.  If anything I can say that I was in the room when Mister Regal (feel weird calling him William) was teaching hopefuls in wrestling and non-wrestling roles.

[RIPPA]

 

[odessasteps]

I hope someone got him box Browns new Andy Kaufman book.