DECEMBER 2017 WRESTLING DISCUSSION

[caley]

34 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

You can always go watch their matches with each other and decide. 

Was that not a post-Mania crowd? I know it was definitely a post-PPV crowd. 

[Curt McGirt]

Just saying that though were both Perfect, I think one is More Perfect

[Curt McGirt]

Sorry, catching up here:

I have a signed DVD case from Cornette sitting in front of me on my computer table where he does commentary on the DVDs with Meltzer. Hilarious. 

And needless to say, Twitter needs to be nuked from on high

[Ace]

I can't really stand modern Cornette, but the Kit Parker DVDs were excellent.

 

[Burgundy LaRue]

It's the same argument every three months or so. There's a match featuring an over-orchestrated flip or blatant non-selling. Someone goes on social media to complain about it. Said wrestler and their fans spew the standard 'you don't get it/your opinion is wrong/you're just a hater' spiel. Wash, rinse, repeat. The bloom's off the rose, and it's just dust at this point.

It doesn't help when the wrestlers being criticized react as if they'll never work again based on one person's opinion. Vince McMahon can throw you out of WWE, but you'll still get booked on the indies unless you've committed murder and even then, someone would take a gamble on you for the publicity. 

I get the Young Bucks to a point, but don't care for the shtick. Whatever. It makes some happy, clearly. I just wish they would signal to their fans when they're about to work a situation like this. Because my word, both they and their Buckeroos can be insufferable. Folks are going after Daniel Cormier, who's a fellow wrestling fan and simply said he didn't lie that particular sequence.  They're acting like he ran over their puppy. At some point, just shrug at it and move on.

 

[Infinit]

I find the Bucks entertaining. Their schtick is fun. But at the same time I prefer my pro wrestling more physical, less "choreographed gymnastic routine". Its all about compartmentalizing.

[Technico Support]

 

6 hours ago, Beech27 said:

I know I shouldn't care about angry online wrestling opinions, but if Cornette's criticism of Okada and Omega is that they didn't/don't hit hard enough, he's just never seen them. You'd have a much easier time arguing the opposite, frankly, that they're athletic and charismatic enough that they don't need to leave matches with welts and boot prints on their skin. And if Flair's bumping isn't business exposing, then I don't know what is. Which isn't even a criticism, but god, no one could possibly mistake Flair/Steamboat for anything but a worked athletic exhibition. It's great! But.

"Take something that someone likes today and shit on it, then wait for the dumb marks, who think I'm something greater than a just a sad old carny, to pat me on the back and buy old Midnight Express bric a brac " is Cornette's entire act nowadays.  The fact that he's clearly never seen Okada or Omega work is beside the point to the morons who inexplicably still like him and pay money to see him this century.

The fact that the Bucks, Zayn, Owens, and any number of guys he's either shit on or mistreated are all doing well and making money, while he has to prostitute himself and sell memorabilia to get by, means there is some justice in the universe.

[Craig H]

4 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

 

"Take something that someone likes today and shit on it, then wait for the dumb marks, who think I'm something greater than a just a sad old carny, to pat me on the back and buy old Midnight Express bric a brac " is Cornette's entire act nowadays.  The fact that he's clearly never seen Okada or Omega work is beside the point to the morons who inexplicably still like him and pay money to see him this century.

The fact that the Bucks, Zayn, Owens, and any number of guys he's either shit on or mistreated are all doing well and making money, while he has to prostitute himself and sell memorabilia to get by, means there is some justice in the universe.

Don't forget whipping his dick out on stage in front of an audience.

[Brian Fowler]

Naito/Tanahashi feud > Omega/Okada

[caley]

Since we're talking about the Bucks/Bullet Club

 

https://deadspin.com/here-s-the-bullet-club-leading-the-crowd-at-the-ecw-are-1821396022?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_twitter&utm_source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

[MORELOCK]

5 hours ago, Beech27 said:

You're right that fandom operates this way, but it's such a weird phenomenon to me, honestly. Of course there can be no objective truths about subjective performance, but "People are getting excited about a thing, so other people need to hate it in equal measure" is just logically incoherent. People can hate whatever, but it's the application of causality that confuses me. Positive fan responses don't actually require a backlash.

I never said that it's *necessary*, it's just a logical outgrowth of there being hyperbolic reactions to wrestlers that people aren't entirely on board with. There isn't a lot of backlash to say, the love of Rusev, because he isn't doing anything that a particular sect of wrestling fans would consider to be obnoxious or controversial. Because the love of the Young Bucks is so overblown and they are so reliant on their schtick that many find annoying, the opposing negative reaction is bound to raise to the level of the positive reaction.

 

5 hours ago, Craig H said:

I'm hard pressed to call anyone better than Okada or Omega at this point. Naito comes close. Ishii is another. I almost want to say AJ given the bullshit he's had to work with.

And like, fine - you're entitled to have those favorites and no one is going to overreact to the mere idea of you having them. But when the response to people that don't care for that style is "LOL You're just Jim Cornette and out of touch and we are objectively right and anyone that doesn't like Omega or listen to Meltzer's opinions is just a contrarian," it creates a sort of polarization of wrestling fandom that is hard to reconcile. 

[Niners Fan in CT]

I'm not sure I've met a Young Bucks fan in real life.  Even a couple people I know who will go to indy events from time to time are like "yeah,  they're okay.."  

[Craig H]

1 minute ago, MORELOCK said:

And like, fine - you're entitled to have those favorites and no one is going to overreact to the mere idea of you having them. But when the response to people that don't care for that style is "LOL You're just Jim Cornette and out of touch and we are objectively right and anyone that doesn't like Omega or listen to Meltzer's opinions is just a contrarian," it creates a sort of polarization of wrestling fandom that is hard to reconcile. 

Who the hell is saying that?

[MORELOCK]

1 minute ago, Craig H said:

Who the hell is saying that?

I mean, you might not be, but there's a slavish devotion to Meltzer and his opinions on this board alone - I've been called a contrarian here and those kinds of sentiments are regularly repeated here. That's without getting into Twitter, which is pretty much always a shitshow.

Basically every time Cornette's name comes up, there's at least a page or so of people just repeating that he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about. That's true sometimes, but more often than not it just seems like defensiveness that he is criticizing their NJPW faves.

[Beech27]

11 minutes ago, MORELOCK said:

And like, fine - you're entitled to have those favorites and no one is going to overreact to the mere idea of you having them. But when the response to people that don't care for that style is "LOL You're just Jim Cornette and out of touch and we are objectively right and anyone that doesn't like Omega or listen to Meltzer's opinions is just a contrarian," it creates a sort of polarization of wrestling fandom that is hard to reconcile. 

And when the response to being a fan of New Japan/ROH/etc is "LOL you're just Dave Meltzer and a trend chaser and we are objectively right and anyone that likes Omega or listens to the Observer is just a sheep," it creates a sort of polarization of wrestling fandom that is hard to reconcile.

Not to "both sides" this... but.... yeah. Both sides. Appeals to authority are garbage arguments, agreed. But that's not really a problem on this board, is it? I haven't seen one instance where someone suggests a match in New Japan is good because Dave says so, or even using that as a supporting argument. That's a straw man that deserves a torch. 

[Niners Fan in CT]

The thing I don't understand here is that what the Young Bucks do is NOTHING like what Omega,  Okada or the bulk of NJPW is like.   You can't really compare the Bucks to the bulk of NJPW.  It's two different things  

[Craig H]

3 minutes ago, Beech27 said:

And when the response to being a fan of New Japan/ROH/etc is "LOL you're just Dave Meltzer and a trend chaser and we are objectively right and anyone that likes Omega or listens to the Observer is just a sheep," it creates a sort of polarization of wrestling fandom that is hard to reconcile.

Not to "both sides" this... but.... yeah. Both sides. Appeals to authority are garbage arguments, agreed. But that's not really a problem on this board, is it? I haven't seen one instance where someone suggests a match in New Japan is good because Dave says so, or even using that as a supporting argument. That's a straw man that deserves a torch. 

Yeah, I can't recall seeing it and even if I did, so what? Anyway, most people, maybe all people, are typically content to like what they want as long as you don't say a word about Nick Bockwinkel.

Now, 10 years ago? It might be a different story, but many of us have grown up and many of us are too fucking old to give a shit.

[SirSmUgly]

5 hours ago, Craig H said:

I'm hard pressed to call anyone better than Okada or Omega at this point. Naito comes close. Ishii is another. I almost want to say AJ given the bullshit he's had to work with.

I don't get it on either of those first two guys. Naito and Ishii, on the other hand, I can see the arguments for. 

EDIT: Then again, my idea of "the best" wrestler based on current tape is Matanza Cueto (not Jeff Cobb, but specifically Matanza Cueto), so what the fuck do I know. 

[Guest Edwin]

29 minutes ago, caley said:

Since we're talking about the Bucks/Bullet Club

 

https://deadspin.com/here-s-the-bullet-club-leading-the-crowd-at-the-ecw-are-1821396022?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_twitter&utm_source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

Not that this really matters, but...

Yes, the real fighters don’t like the theatrical fighters. Nothing really new there. But all of that is simply a lead in to another bit of kayfabe-breaking from the Ring of Honor crew.

Whoever wrote didn't even bother digging up the rest of Daniel Cormier's tweets.

 

 

[Burgundy LaRue]

Image being a WWE fan and being called a dumb fuck whose mother should have drank Drano when she learned she was pregnant with you. And by folks you'd think would at least respect different opinions.

That's not as hyperbolic as one would think.

[Craig H]

Imagine ignoring Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.

[SirSmUgly]

Ending the year on a bang, I see. 

Can't we just agree to all channel our hostility at one another toward a more deserving target, like Vince McMahon and his shithead family or someone?

[Burgundy LaRue]

It's not anger for me, it's awareness.That some of us just won't be accepted into the 'true' wrestling fan fold, because reasons. 

I don't even do the social media thing all that much, most of my wrestling talk is on this board. 

[piranesi]

17 minutes ago, MORELOCK said:

I mean, you might not be, but there's a slavish devotion to Meltzer and his opinions on this board alone - I've been called a contrarian here and those kinds of sentiments are regularly repeated here. That's without getting into Twitter, which is pretty much always a shitshow.

Basically every time Cornette's name comes up, there's at least a page or so of people just repeating that he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about. That's true sometimes, but more often than not it just seems like defensiveness that he is criticizing their NJPW faves.

 

As far as I can tell the tendency on this board is to see Meltzer as a hilariously dorky goofball who is heroic for his stamina and dedication but who has had, for the last 30 years or so, exactly three things to say and he says them over and over and over and they are variously wrong (#1), useless (#2), and disputable (#3):

1) These things go in cycles
2) That was just Vince being Vince
3) If it $$$$$ it's successful

This dispute seems to center on the third thing, which is the definition of "good for business" as being either "that which follows the taste of the crowd as determined by ratings, tickets, and pops." or "that which leads the taste of the crowd as determined by people who understand the art form." Meltzer seems, at least lately, to hold to the idea that the crowd and their taste drives business and if business is good, the thing ("art" "product" whatever) is good. Cornette holds to the idea that there is a fixed definition of "good wrestling" and that if you stick to it the crowd will follow and business will be good.

As best I can tell, historical precedent in art, music, film, etc. indicates that Cornette is wrong but that the argument also never ends. It's been going on since Plato said innovation in art would lead to the downfall of society and the hellpit of unregulated democracy and (at least in art) the Plato side never wins.

 

Yes, I just called Jim Cornette a Platonic aesthetician. That does not mean he is not also a sad old weirdo who needs a spanking.

[Craig H]

4 minutes ago, Smelly McUgly said:

Ending the year on a bang, I see. 

Can't we just agree to all channel our hostility at one another toward a more deserving target, like Vince McMahon and his shithead family or someone?

I don't think anyone here is being hostile and I probably shouldn't assume BLR's comment came from social media, but holy shit, that looks like it came right from social media. I'm not sure why anyone would give a shit about what anyone else says about their fandom or if they're a true fan or whatever. You know better than anyone else just how much of a fan you are and that's all that should matter, I suppose.