NJPW WrestleKingdom 12 in Tokyo Dome 1/4/2018

[kafkonia]

LEGO is a bit less likely to impale you and give you tetanus.

[Dewar]

5 hours ago, cubbymark said:

Is Red Shoes the Tirantes of New Japan?

Red Shoes is not good, but he is not Tirantes bad.

[Jiji]

I don't watch CMLL regularly but as far as spotlight hog refs go, he's my favourite. He's got such hilarious mannerisms and is a piece of shit. 

[ka-to]

MIO is AAA Tirantes in OZ, CMLL Tirantes in Ice Ribbon.

 

[The Natural]

 

[sabremike]

Was wondering if any of you who follow the company can explain why they didn't pull the trigger on Naito winning the title? Just from what I've seen him winning would've been an all time epic history making moment, why didn't it happen? They must have a reason but I don't know what it is.

[EVA]

I think there are a lot of reasons.

My primary theory is that, as hot as Naito is right now, Okada is still the guy they're building the company around and are expecting to carry the company for the next 5-10 years.  With that in mind, it makes sense to put him over on what is likely going to be their most watched show ever.

I think it can also be argued that Naito's character doesn't really NEED the belt, and, in fact, it might actually be antithetical to his character.  Conversely, the belt kind of IS Okada's character.  He's the Establishment, Naito is the disruptor.  If Naito gets the belt, and especially if he runs with it,  he becomes the Establishment.  It kinda fundamentally changes the dynamic (and arguably makes LIJ instantly less cool).  Now is probably not the right time to go there.

As we've seen time and again, Gedo is not afraid to play the long game with his booking.  Even though Okada took the belt from Tanahashi very early on in their rivalry, it seemingly took an eternity for him to finally vanquish Tanahashi and truly take control of his kingdom.  I think the same logic is at play here.  Naito's really going to have to work for this.

And that's fine.  Japanese audiences seem to view these things very differently than American audiences.  They LIKE seeing their favorites deal with adversity and fight back after defeats, whereas there is definitely a window with American audiences where a guy has to win or he gets branded a loser and everybody's done with him.

[Beech27]

I expected he'd win, and wanted him to, but I'll take a stab at the story they're telling.

The idea was essentially that just making it to the main event was the goal that's driven him for years. At WK8, he lost the main event spot, lost the match itself, and even lost himself. So, slowly, he found a new identity, got his revenge on the IC title and Tanahashi himself, became the star he was supposed to be all along, and now took his place in the final match of Wrestle Kingdom. He even told Okada before the match that he'd become the top guy, and in a sense, won already. And that's all well and good, but it left him without the focus he needed to actually beat Okada. In a sense, he forgot himself, trying his old Stardust Press too many times, and playing to the crowd rather than planting Okada with a final Destino. He's climbed the mountain, but needs to get used to the altitude in order to survive and stay there.

Narratively, I think @Oyaji makes good points too. Naito's story is the chase; Okada's story is his dominance. The belt is practically part of his entrance ensemble at this point. I think challenging both characters by inverting that dynamic would be really interesting, but I don't think that ship has sailed. After all, if we are to see the Okada/Tanahashi dynamic reflected here, the big win will come a year late--but actually, right on time.

[Jiji]

I just don't think Gedo will be that predictable. We've seen that story told already and it doesn't really suit the Naito/Okada dynamic at all. Naito's not a blue chip prospect trying to wrestle the belt away from the dominant champion. He's a punk who's anti-establishment and anti-tradition. He loathed the IWGP IC belt for reasons well explained above, but does he really need or care about the main title? Fuck no. Even if he were to defeat Okada again (let's not forget he's the only guy to beat Okada for the IWGP title in ages and where pretty much all of his peers have already failed), it doesn't suit him to be the guy at the top for long. The view at the top is for the elites. He's the antithesis of that. I mean, I'm restating a lot here, but Beech nailed it in that he's already proven to be the top guy. He was more concerned at the acceptance speech for his MVP award about whether or not the presenter voted for him or Okada than his big title match at the biggest show the company's put on in ages. I think his character would take more joy in ruining Okada's life than wearing the crown.

I think the big story for Naito this year is not getting one more shot at Okada to tie up a loose end but EVIL trying to usurp leadership of LIJ away from him. Only problem is they've already got the inter-faction drama going on with Omega and Cody and that too could be considered predictable and repetitive.

I know we all want to see Tanahashi take some time off, but it doesn't seem like he's going to anytime soon unless MiSu forces his hand in storyline. If he's going to limp around, I'd love for him to be the challenger in Okada's record breaking defence. Would be so dramatic and the dynamic of their rivalry has flipped entirely with the old broken down former ace (who still says he's the ace) trying to prove he still has it against the in-his-prime unbeatable champion. New Japan has such a wealth of potentially top shelf stories to play out this year and beyond.

[Beech27]

7 minutes ago, Oyaji said:

(let's not forget he's the only guy to beat Okada for the IWGP title in ages and where pretty much all of his peers have already failed)

This really is an easy thing to lose the significance of, even though we all know it. The sentiment among American fans is basically that anyone who is anyone should get at least one run with a world title, if not several. Because that's what we've been conditioned to think by WWE. I'm not suggesting that's better or worse, just... really, really different, because the tv/touring model is different, so it should be, and... yeah. It is what it is. 

Like, Goto, Ishii, MiSu, Shibata are all pretty big stars who I think it's safe to say will never win the belt. (And it's not hard to find a lot of people who wish any number of them would.) Nakamura was a huge deal, but hadn't held it since 2010, and probably wasn't ever going to again. Even among the ascendant stars, there's no one I'm sure is winning it someday. I think Omega will, but it depends how long he sticks around; and in any case, I could see him positioned as the parallel/alternative ace, much as Nakamura himself was. (Albeit more directly targeted towards the Western audience.) Otherwise? I genuinely doubt guys like Ibushi, SANADA (this could look really stupid really soon), EVIL, etc., will ever win the title. It's easy to see Okada having a near monopoly on the belt for the next three years at least. Dude is 30; chances are, the guy who genuinely unseats him is either a Young Lion, or a relatively anonymous student.

All of this is to say, Naito winning the title at all, much less a second time--which I do still think will happen, if only for a short run--already puts him in pretty sparse company.

[Raziel]

That's what people miss in terms of Japan vs. US.  When they pick a guy, then run with it.  Okada's entered the orbit of Tanahashi, Mutoh, Hashimoto, and Fujinami in terms of god-tier reigns.  Okada's got 2 more defenses until the single reign record, so at this point, whoever unseats him will be a huge deal for the guy.  Now, is it a Sasaki-like next champ, or a Rikioh?

[Jiji]

Don't spoil my dream of Shibata coming back in perfect health, dropping the shoot head butts, and having a safe, long glorious career with an IWGP reign in there. THERE ARE NO CONSEQUENCES.

Also, yeah, it would be crazy but how many pants would be soiled if SANADA beats Okada in their upcoming match lol? It would be the No Country for Old Men (or 30 year olds) booking of this title run. Protagonist gets got out of nowhere when nobody was expecting it.

Edit: I forgot there would actually be some beautiful symmetry here too! SANADA was the reason Okada lost the title to Naito in the first place! HOLY. SHIT. IT'S HAPPENING.

[EVA]

It would basically be like Aries beating Joe for the ROH belt after he had just put down Punk and everybody thought he was going to coast until he got closer to the 2 year mark of his reign.

[Brian Fowler]

I also think maybe the plan is for Omega to be the one that gets the job done, but not until after he finally splits from BC, goes full baby, etc.

But then again, I was expecting to see Naito try to got the roof of the Dome with the IWGP belt, so what do I know?

Edit: @Oyaji I am fully down with them running back Ace vs Okada if Tana really isn't ever going to take time off.

[sevendaughters]

1 hour ago, Raziel403 said:

That's what people miss in terms of Japan vs. US.  When they pick a guy, then run with it.  Okada's entered the orbit of Tanahashi, Mutoh, Hashimoto, and Fujinami in terms of god-tier reigns.  Okada's got 2 more defenses until the single reign record, so at this point, whoever unseats him will be a huge deal for the guy.  Now, is it a Sasaki-like next champ, or a Rikioh?

omg I see it now

classic NJPW mystery "X" challenger video plays

ominous trap beat

slogan appears "I been here before"

rap rock remix of Ode to Joy with excessive widdly solo

Gedo books the redemption of Rikio

(postscript: Kidani has a heart attack, sells the company, audiences return to 2003 levels)
 

[TheVileOne]

I heard audio of Omega and Jericho talking about the referee issue, and it just sounds like Red Shoes/NJPW just didn't know how to handle rope breaks in a No DQ match or a No DQ match at all. Jericho talked about Red Shoes freezing up when it happened.

JR/Barnett did reference it in their commentary.  They seemed to play it off like Red Shoes was doing it on instinct. 

Question of Jericho/Omega, is anyone bothered by Omega taking those chairshots to the head?  Or did those spots just look worse than they appeared and were the chairs heavily gimmicked?  It sounded based off what Jericho and Omega said, they weren't happy about the chairs since they were made with real screws, and they freaked out because Red Shoes wasn't throwing the screws out of the ring after they broke the chair.

[Brian Fowler]

I said something about it being really dumb at the time, but the way the chairs fell apart... It probably wasn't as bad as a chair over here would've made it.

I mean, at least nobody is dumb enough to use a real baseball bat, right?

[Casey]

Their tables are worse than the ones pro wrestling uses in the states (everywhere else?), but I think their chairs are safer than the ones everyone else uses. It's a trade off.

[Brian Fowler]

2 minutes ago, Casey said:

Their tables are worse than the ones pro wrestling uses in the states (everywhere else?), but I think their chairs are safer than the ones everyone else uses. It's a trade off.

Yeah Kenny and Chris talked about that, and Kenny talked about asking Gedo about getting ones imported "No. That's not the Japanese way" or something like that.

[Beech27]

1 hour ago, Brian Fowler said:

Edit: @Oyaji I am fully down with them running back Ace vs Okada if Tana really isn't ever going to take time off.

If they ever want to lean into the boos Okada gets, having him smugly clothesline the deposed ace-in-name-only to ash would be a really compelling scene. Hell, make it a now-seeded hair vs. hair match, and the whole arena might burn. We’re not there, but it isn’t hard to see how Tana’s current portrayal could be twisted to emphasize the inherent delusion, which must end in tragedy.

[Brian Fowler]

Beech wants me to hate Okada

[EVA]

You could tell Jericho wanted no part of that table, too.

[MapRef41N93W]

Returning to the Naito/Okada WK12 issue--

Some of these defenses of Okada's win--that Naito's popular enough without the belt, and that his anti-establishment character is unsuited to a title run--aren't only justifications of Naito losing at WK12. Barring another radical character change, they're justifications for Naito losing any subsequent title challenge. Because he'll probably still be really popular, and still be the kind of character that made him so popular, for a long time, maybe the rest of his career.

But if the whole redemption arc and transition from Stardust Genius to LIJ leader never culminates in Naito getting a clean win for the IWGP title, that would be pretty unsatisfying, I think. So the question is: when would be the best, most satisfying time for him to win it? And I suspect the answer will turn out to be... Wrestle Kingdom 12. But Gedo and co. could prove me wrong, and I hope they do.

[Jiji]

He already has completed that transition and beat Okada!

[Curt McGirt]

Since I'm probably not gonna be home Friday night I went ahead and watched Goto/Suzuki in the 2018 Matches thread and yeah, that was awesome. Suzuki was on point this time and damn near killed Goto at the outset with that sleeper, backing into the ropes, walking up and then full extension which was boss... then as Kengo Kimura (I think?) freaks out and checks on Goto (whos eyes are rolling back in his head) Suzuki just sits there on the top turnbuckle, arms folded, like Crom strong on his mountain. So, so baller. Suzuki still has the cooler of all elbows in NJ and Goto have to use three to his one was a nice touch. Killer replays, an AWESOME dropkick, the interference being spoiled, Goto just dying again and again and coming back, it was a great match that didn't wear out its welcome. Then Suzuki comes back, bats the chair out of the way to put down his own chair then shaves his own head, just a perfect capper. No blood for a hair match even, and I'm actually not complaining about that!