NJPW WrestleKingdom 12 in Tokyo Dome 1/4/2018

[Tromatagon]

23 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

LIJ gear is in Hot Topic now but I'm not sure who is making money off it.

This is now my mission for the day.  I have 3-4  hot topics in a 30 mile radius.

 

EDIT: scored one at my mall, which never gets anything.

[DreamBroken]

Really loved Cody/Ibushi, awesome match. Apron Crossrhodes was killer. Excellent stuff from both guys. Glad to see Jericho/Omega live up to the hype and expectations, great brawl and cool to see Jericho in this environment. Enjoyed the main event with an epic finishing stretch and a surprising finish.

[Belgian_Waffle]

Didn't have time to read everyone else's comments so forgive any redundancies. But here are my quick thoughts on the top 3 matches:

 

- Tanahashi vs. Jay: Totally unfair expectations put on Jay but even with that as a caveat I don't think he did very well at all. I agree wit whoever said he is too babyfaced for this gimmick and his endless tauntings about "Who's the ace??" felt like childish tantrums. He looked (understandably) scared and uncomfortable throughout and on top of that he lost so I feel like it's gonna be a long road back to the top for him. Tanahashi was perfect. He is always perfect. He could barely move around in there but it was like watching Kobashi work magic in 2005 with no knees seeing him carry this young hopeful through what ended up being a pretty darn good match in spite of itself. Nothing against Jay, I'm not writing him off based on one match but I think he's got a long way to go before he's a believable threat to Okada and Omega. 

- Omega vs Jericho: This was great. Tons of props to Jericho for putting this performance together. He clearly has a whole late chapter revitalization to his career that this is only the beginning of. I'm not as high on Kenny as most people which is to say I'd put him in the top 10 workers in the world right now rather than 5 (behind Okada, Tanahashi, Naito, Miyahara and Suwama) but he was excellent here throughout. I popped a bunch at the home stretch. 

Okada vs Naito: I have so much good to say about this. I was enthralled from start to finish. I'm going to make three highly contentious statements here: 1) By mid-way through this match I started realizing Okada needs to win, 2) I think this was an easy five-star classic and maybe better than last year's  Okada/Omega main event, 3) I don't think Naito is all that damaged by this loss, and if he is, then it probably wasn't meant to be anyway. I don't really see Naito having "his time". Kawada is the greatest wrestler who ever lived and I'm not sure he was really meant to have "his time" either---his most dramatic stories against Misawa come in his losses and his tag team victories. There's a poetry in some guys always losing, and sometimes giving them the big win just for the sake of doing it isn't satisfying---see, for example, Sting finally beating Flair. With Okada right now you have the potential to build something truly legendary and a throwback to the era when a champ would hold the title for years on end. I worry he might end up crippled and vacating the title before that can happen but if he keeps healthy and going at the pace he's going then this match and all the amazing matches from 2017 are just the beginning of a whole new chapter in wrestling history. This isn't like Kobashi holding the title for two years in NOAH where the only young guys beneath him were either the junior heavyweights or the Takeshis....with NJPW you have a whole host of young lions who could theoretically be pushed to the top of the card in two years just as smoothly as Okada himself was. There's a bigger story to tell here and it doesn't have to end at Wrestle Kingdom just because Tetsuya Naito may never be in such a position to credibly win again. Misawa beating Kawada in 94 would have felt a lot more justified in the longterm if he hadn't turned around and jobbed to Doc a few months later. If they really are going to pull the switch on Kenny and give him the belt then I hope they wait until at least next year's Wrestle Kingdom before they do it. And if it's not Kenny in 2019 then let it be EVIL, or Juice Robinson,, in 2020, or Oka in 2021. 

[Jiji]

If Kawada beat Misawa on June 3, 1994, then his tag triumph a year later in what I consider the best match ever wouldn't be nearly as meaningful. So, yeah, I totally see your point.

[Jenalysis]

I have a hard time buying that Juice or especially EVIL will ever be as good as or as over as Kenny is, or even Naito.

 

 

[lostinube]

People diss Okada's pants but if he had whipped them off going into the Rainmaker pose, you wouldn't be able to count the stars given to the match.

I switched to English commentary for Jericho/Omega and then of course they get spanish announce tabled into not being able to talk for a couple of minutes. Callis took more bumps in that angle than he had in the last twenty years.

[BrianS81177]

Callis looks like Brion James now. He was the dude who played General Munro in the Fifth Element and was also in Blade Runner and Tango & Cash

[Beech27]

Watched the whole thing with some friends this weekend, which is always interesting, because--though they're all something past what one might reasonably call "casual" fans--they only see one or two of New Japan's biggest shows of the year, and maybe the odd super-hyped match. In between, they listen to me ramble about it, but that's pretty much their exposure. They pretty much loved everything, and I actually liked everything a little more, the second time around. There's something to be said for how playing living room color commentator gets you involved in a match, but it's also fun to watch (again) after having formed a notion of the intended narrative. Which is to say... I actually think the 4-way and White/Tana were pretty okay. At least, not as "let's just do stuff, then someone wins" as I thought.

Scurll, of all people, was pretty much the glue in a match that did spend a little too much time letting each guy hit all their stuff. He wanted a 4-way because he could cheat and pick his spots; when he was doing that, he was effective. When he was left with a clean one-on-one with anyone, he was at a disadvantage. That happened; he lost. Lotta other stuff going on, but as a basic story, that worked for me.

White's plan was kinda the opposite: Draw out Dome-vintage Tanahashi, over and over, against whom he cannot yet win. Even at the very end, he turns down a chance to unbalance Tana on the top rope--or simply roll to the other side of the ring--in order to demand another strike. He comes across as petulant, and maybe--probably--a bit foolish. But I don't think that's the worst thing. Young knife fetishists can be both, and plenty dangerous besides. And if he's losing, you can now at least point to easy game-plan things that could immediately change the outcome, and not just "Well, he simply doesn't have the tools."

Again, both were much closer to the worst match on the card than the best--and maybe you could say they were the two worst--but I think there was at least the framework of something good to each.

Aside: Friends liked Cody/Ibushi and Omega/Jericho the most, but they know all those guys the best by far. Having been the resident nerd for this stuff among that friend group for... a long time now... it's still weird how often I manage to forget that yeah, the crossover thing is important to an American audience. They can grasp Naito's journey, but they haven't invested in it; Goto is just the guy who beat Shibata last year, etc.

[BrianS81177]

I watched it with a co-worker who had very limited exposure to New Japan (basically he's seen a few Kenny Omega matches on youtube and that's it). He enjoyed it so much he said he was gonna sign up for NJPW world. He became a huge fan of Suzuki and Ibushi after their matches. 

[Thibs]

Never really been a fan of New Japan and have really limited exposure to it. Watched Omega/Jericho and enjoyed the hell out of it. This is clearly the only company that can match WWE in terms of creating a big fight atmosphere.

That being said, there were some eye rolling moments that stood out for me, that they should think about as they try to expand into the US.

A referee named “Red Shoes”? Really?

The commentary was very mark-ish and childish at times. Callis screaming and Kevin Kelly’s sing along to some of Omega’s moves left me laughing. 

[Thibs]

On 1/8/2018 at 3:00 AM, lostinube said:

People diss Okada's pants but if he had whipped them off going into the Rainmaker pose, you wouldn't be able to count the stars given to the match.

I switched to English commentary for Jericho/Omega and then of course they get spanish announce tabled into not being able to talk for a couple of minutes. Callis took more bumps in that angle than he had in the last twenty years.

You watched most of this with Japanese commentary?

[John E. Dynamite]

is it that hard to believe? Is it harder to believe than the existence of a man named Red Shoes?

[Thibs]

Harder no. Just as strange..yes.

[Beech27]

It's really common for non-Japanese speakers to still prefer native commentary, especially if you follow the promotion closely. Speaking for myself: The English team best serves to explain story and such to people who haven't watched every bit of build, or to introduce an entirely new audience. But if you know all the specifics already, the Japanese announce crew can essentially act as an extension of the audience; you get the emotional response, while still relying on the wrestling to tell the story. I really prefer that experience. Plus--and I don't want this to sound gatekeeperish--if you've been watching Japanese wrestling for a long time, Japanese commentary just feels natural, because it was--and mostly, still is--the only choice.

[sevendaughters]

I watched a match with some friends with English comms around when Corino was doing it and it was way better than when Striker was doing it, but I too am Japanese all the way. I've picked up a little of the language too - though I can't tell what they're saying when this happens:

Shibata-san
Hai?
LONG QUESTION
LONG ANSWER
Liger groans

Nogami's emotion is incredible. His breaking down in tears at Nagata's G1 retirement will stay with me for ages. What is kind of amazing about the Japanese comms is that only some of the announcers are NJPW employees - some are networks guys doing the job, and yet they still sound less forced than WWE.

Not that we should keep comparing NJPW & WWE and there is a long history of great English language announcing. Just not much at the present.

[Thibs]

2 hours ago, Beech27 said:

It's really common for non-Japanese speakers to still prefer native commentary, especially if you follow the promotion closely. Speaking for myself: The English team best serves to explain story and such to people who haven't watched every bit of build, or to introduce an entirely new audience. But if you know all the specifics already, the Japanese announce crew can essentially act as an extension of the audience; you get the emotional response, while still relying on the wrestling to tell the story. I really prefer that experience. Plus--and I don't want this to sound gatekeeperish--if you've been watching Japanese wrestling for a long time, Japanese commentary just feels natural, because it was--and mostly, still is--the only choice.

Personally I’d never be able to do this but I see your point.

[sevendaughters]

to me this call is as good as any of JR's big ones

 

[John from Cincinnati]

I love Japanese commentary. At some point, most English commentary makes me want to reach through my screen and slap someone. It's good for my blood pressure to not understand what you're saying. 

[Tromatagon]

I just tune all the commentary out.  It comes from being a Lucha Underground fan.

[Brian Fowler]

I've watched Japanese wrestling with Japanese commentary for 15+ years, but if there's an English option, I'm damn sure taking it.

[Craig H]

If the English commentary were better, I'd watch the shit with English commentary on. Given what NJPW has had in the past, Jesus, I'd rather take Byron Saxton and Josh Matthews boring me to death. I get JR's reasoning behind not wanting to watch the shit before calling it, but come on man, do a little homework. Same for Josh Barnett.

I've also heard enough of Don Callis and Kevin Kelly to know they both suck. Maybe they were better this time around, but I fucking hated listening to Kevin Kelly call ROH matches. Plus, based on what I read of Don being all shooty with his commentary and remarking on the booking, yeah, fuck that. That stuff just takes me out of the match.

I'd rather just listen to the Japanese commentary lose their fucking minds while saying "so desu ne" a ton. 

[Beech27]

Kenny was on Jericho's podcast again, discussing the build to their match, and how it went down. Some things I noticed, if you don't want to listen:

You get to hear Kenny's Gedo impression. Needs work, I think.

There was a video package and extras on stage planned to give context to his outfit, but New Japan just... sorta forgot to do any of it. It would show him in ancient Egypt, then modern day Tokyo, portrayed as something like a literal God of Wrestling. And I mean, maybe they just didn't forget, and didn't have the heart to tell him they hated the idea. Or maybe they were worried about backlash for portraying a white guy being literally worshiped in Africa and then Japan. Anyway! The point was he wanted to appear still arrogant, because he's not supposed to be "full baby" yet.

He was originally going to moonsault off the light tower, but didn't after being informed that Ospreay had. He also joked that, Of course the juniors went twenty minutes over, and hit everything! So, he did the table stomp instead, but didn't tell Jericho that's what he was going for, just hoping he'd get the idea and not move or something. 

There was no solid plan for Omega's Dome opponent, though he suspected they were gonna--to use his word--shotgun him and Ibushi. It would be a good match, but he didn't think they'd have time to tell the story right. 

He's either bluffing or a bit deluded, but Jericho is pretty adamant he could have kept up with a typical "Kenny Omega Main Event", but they just wanted to do something else. Although, he notes several other matches used enough weapons and such that they nearly could have been no DQ as well.

Jericho mentions how much more freedom wrestlers have in New Japan, stylistically, which makes it a different product from WWE. This is a very good thing, in his estimation. 

Perhaps not surprisingly, they're both very happy with the process and the result. 

 

[Jiji]

Jericho is very delusional and it's helped him throughout his career but it makes him look downright foolish at times (see "originating" the springboard -> counter RKO spot).

[ka-to]

You guys are youngsters. Johnny red shoes Dugan  was a legendary referee out of the Olympic Auditorium in LA. He was often brought to Japan for big title matches. The current red shoes is a tribute.

[lostinube]

18 hours ago, Thibs said:

You watched most of this with Japanese commentary?

I live in Japan. It's not required but I try to listen to stuff in Japanese when possible. I switched to the English for Omega/Jericho because Callis has been more involved in the angle than the Japanese commentary team and I felt it would add more to what was going on.