UFC 217: Bisping vs. St-Pierre (11/4/2017) - New York, NY (Madison Square Garden)

[Elsalvajeloco]

13 minutes ago, supremebve said:

I feel you, but Georges has been knocked out once in his entire career (he never went unconscious), and avoided damage for most of his career.  Bisping getting knocked out cold by Henderson, getting thumped by Rockhold before getting tapped their first fight, getting knocked out but somehow still winning against Anderson Silva, and the spin kick from TRTitor has to slow you down a bit.

Somehow it hasn't though because ALL three of those things happened before he won the belt. Also, I think Henderson is just a naturally bad style matchup for him because Bisping tends to be a bit predictable with how he circles. He can fight Bisping 30 times and have a chance to win all of them whether Bisping is in his prime or not.

My argument is that GSP has been overtraining for a good portion of his career. Most of his damage was most likely accrued behind closed doors. RJJ didn't get hit for fifteen years legitimately, and he looked miserable in the final stretch of his LHW title run. The guy probably did PEDs for a good while and in addition, trying manage becoming a HW for one fight with Mackie Shilstone probably did him in.  Antonio Tarver and Glen Johnson sure as hell wasn't young lions when they beat Roy. So who is and isn't fresh in theory probably doesn't apply here 100%. Antonio Tarver beat a severe crack addiction and then spent years fighting in anonymity for much of his career before he got his title shots.

[TheVileOne]

 

[supremebve]

2 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Somehow it hasn't though because ALL three of those things happened before he won the belt. Also, I think Henderson is just a naturally bad style matchup for him because Bisping tends to be a bit predictable with how he circles. He can fight Bisping 30 times and have a chance to win all of them whether Bisping is in his prime or not.

My argument is that GSP has been overtraining for a good portion of his career. Most of his damage was most likely accrued behind closed doors. RJJ didn't get hit for fifteen years legitimately, and he looked miserable in the final stretch of his LHW title run. The guy probably did PEDs for a good while and in addition, trying manage becoming a HW for one fight with Mackie Shilstone probably did him in.  Antonio Tarver and Glen Johnson sure as hell wasn't young lions when they beat Roy. So who is and isn't fresh in theory probably doesn't apply here 100%.

The thing about being shop worn from head trauma is that it doesn't present itself until it does.  Big Nog went from taking brutal ground and pound from Fedor to not being able to take a punch.  It happens.  Bisping has always been a very good fighter, but he won the championship against a guy who he'd beat maybe once out of every 20 fights.  I give him all the credit in the world for winning that fight, I just don't think he'd be able to do it again.  This is a dude who was getting tagged by Thales Leites not so long ago.  He isn't a better fighter, because he was allowed to continue after Anderson Silva knocked him out and he clipped an arrogant Luke Rockhold.  GSP at his best was the best fighter on the planet.  He may be diminished from hard ass workouts and sparring sessions, but Bisping has taken a shit load of punishment over the years.  I honestly don't see how GSP isn't the younger fighter in age and damage.  He could be, but I doubt it.  

The secret about Roy Jones Jr. is that he has a glass jaw, he was just fast enough to not get hit cleanly for most of his prime.  Seriously, he slowed down enough for someone to really crack him hard, and he went out cold.  

[Elsalvajeloco]

24 minutes ago, supremebve said:

The thing about being shop worn from head trauma is that it doesn't present itself until it does.  Big Nog went from taking brutal ground and pound from Fedor to not being able to take a punch.  It happens. 

I don't think Minotauro is a good example because the guy took inhumane amounts of punishment. That's the Muta scale for MMA brutality.

24 minutes ago, supremebve said:

 Bisping has always been a very good fighter, but he won the championship against a guy who he'd beat maybe once out of every 20 fights. 

Luke Rockhold is available to be hit. David Branch was putting paws on him in round one. Mike Bisping has a chance to beat someone who always put his back on the cage and let you hit him with right hands. Like I said, all the top middleweights got something wrong with them.

24 minutes ago, supremebve said:

 GSP at his best was the best fighter on the planet.  He may be diminished from hard ass workouts and sparring sessions, but Bisping has taken a shit load of punishment over the years.  I honestly don't see how GSP isn't the younger fighter in age and damage.  He could be, but I doubt it.  

But that was also a different era against a different group of opponents. Some of those guys could have been top middleweights (especially if Okami was the #2 for 3 or 4 years), but that's a much different era all things considered. The evidence in the last two or three fights was he was trending downwards and not able to maintain that. If he would have fought Lawler, Lawler would have lit him up like Chinese New Year. So to add four years of inactivity to that is not a recipe for success against the top middleweights. So if I'm given a choice of picking who is more shot or whatever anyone wants to describe it as, I'm going to give the answer of the fighter who has proven to me as much and that's Georges St-Pierre.  

24 minutes ago, supremebve said:

The secret about Roy Jones Jr. is that he has a glass jaw, he was just fast enough to not get hit cleanly for most of his prime.  Seriously, he slowed down enough for someone to really crack him hard, and he went out cold.  

I don't think that's the case because glass jaws usually reveal themselves way before you reach a decade and a half of fighting. And he was fighting 3 and sometimes 4 times a year so it's not like he didn't have a chance to get hit. He was ninja quick but he ain't the Flash. If you're fighting for up to 36 minutes in any given night in combination with fighting regularly, you are going to get put on your ass if you got a weak chin. It was evident in that final stretch that he wasn't the same fighter physically. He flunked two or three tests for PEDs (back when it didn't matter if you got caught really) and then decided he wanted to be a heavyweight just to cherry pick a belt. That physical depreciation also applies to your chin. Bernard Hopkins never really got smashed in the face for 25 years, but fucking Joe Smith is sending him out of the ring like a Bushwhacker in the Royal Rumble. It ain't because Hopkins had a glass chin.

[username]

I wouldn't take either GSP or Bisping against anyone else in the top 5 at middleweight assuming they were at their best, and I sorta suspect that neither are actually at their best.  I also think that both of them would retire before facing someone from the top 5.  So basically... I guess this starts the countdown to Whittaker being announced as the "real" champ.

 

Garbrandt/Dillishaw is the standout fight on the card for me.  Garbrandt really impressed me against Cruz and if he can replicate that level I think he'll win, but I expect them both to be fighting at a very high, very technical level.

[TheVileOne]

I'm going all in for Dillashaw on Saturday.  Something just tells me that his style matches up well for Garbrandt.

 

[Elsalvajeloco]

 

[hammerva]

So what is the betting line on the number of pounds overweight hendricks will be at the weigh in.  He has to keep that streak going 

I would like to see GSP win because I actually think he would face legit tough contenders unlike Bisping who in my opinion is just looking to see how long he can avoid facing real competition for his title like  Whitaker 

[supremebve]

15 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I don't think that's the case because glass jaws usually reveal themselves way before you reach a decade and a half of fighting. And he was fighting 3 and sometimes 4 times a year so it's not like he didn't have a chance to get hit. He was ninja quick but he ain't the Flash. If you're fighting for up to 36 minutes in any given night in combination with fighting regularly, you are going to get put on your ass if you got a weak chin. It was evident in that final stretch that he wasn't the same fighter physically. He flunked two or three tests for PEDs (back when it didn't matter if you got caught really) and then decided he wanted to be a heavyweight just to cherry pick a belt. That physical depreciation also applies to your chin. Bernard Hopkins never really got smashed in the face for 25 years, but fucking Joe Smith is sending him out of the ring like a Bushwhacker in the Royal Rumble. It ain't because Hopkins had a glass chin.

I completely disagree with this.  Roy Jones Jr., Floyd Mayweather Jr., Bernard Hopkins, etc.  lived and died on their defense.  As they slowed down, Floyd and Hopkins have shown the ability to take a punch.  Floyd pretty much decided to let Conor McGregor land punches in their fight just to make it interesting.  The only thing we thought Conor could do in a boxing match is punch really hard.  Hopkins career is full of fights, including one against a young Roy Jones, where he took plenty of punishment.  Roy Jones slowed down and started getting knocked cold.  He went from being a great defensive fighter with lightning fast reflexes to being destroyed as those reflexes slowed.  He spent his entire career outclassing his opponents and not receiving much punishment.  He's never shown any ability to take a shot and keep fighting.  At the worst he has a glass jaw, and at the very best his ability to take punishment is at that Frank Mir or Vitor Belfort level where he just wilts as soon as the fight starts going against him.  He was great in his prime, but his questionable chin is why he became completely irrelevant once his prime was over.

[Elsalvajeloco]

8 minutes ago, hammerva said:

So what is the betting line on the number of pounds overweight hendricks will be at the weigh in.  He has to keep that streak going 

I would like to see GSP win because I actually think he would face legit tough contenders unlike Bisping who in my opinion is just looking to see how long he can avoid facing real competition for his title like  Whitaker 

It looks like Bisping might fight Whittaker on the card in Perth should he win tomorrow.

[supremebve]

10 minutes ago, hammerva said:

So what is the betting line on the number of pounds overweight hendricks will be at the weigh in.  He has to keep that streak going 

I would like to see GSP win because I actually think he would face legit tough contenders unlike Bisping who in my opinion is just looking to see how long he can avoid facing real competition for his title like  Whitaker 

I wouldn't be surprised if both of these dudes retired after this fight.  Honestly, if Bisping wins I don't see GSP coming back, and Bisping would be able to retire as the only man to hold a win over GSP and Anderson Silva.  If GSP wins, he'll be able to claim greatest of all-time status by retiring as the Welterweight and Middleweight champions, and Bisping will have to fight either Jacare, Romero, Rockhold, or Weidman to get back to the title.  Why the hell would he want to do that?

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 hour ago, supremebve said:

I completely disagree with this.  Roy Jones Jr., Floyd Mayweather Jr., Bernard Hopkins, etc.  lived and died on their defense.  As they slowed down, Floyd and Hopkins have shown the ability to take a punch. 

Have we forgot the period where Floyd was having brawls with like Phillip N'dou and that first fight with Jose Luis Castillo? There was that period where Floyd Sr. got mad that Roger was letting Floyd get hit when he took over as Floyd's chief trainer. Even the fastest guys got hit in the ring.

James Toney landed like 150+ punches on Roy when they fought. James Toney, who had KO of the Year candidates every other fight prior to fighting Roy, still landed 150 punches on him despite losing damn near every round. Mike McCallum, another known puncher, landed 209 punches on Roy. He fought Jorge Castro, who was a top MW at the time they fought, early in his career and Castro ended his career with almost 100 knockouts. There were points in that fight where Roy just let Castro hit to make a point that he was better than him. Hopkins, who was a puncher at that time,  landed 153 punches on Roy Jones. So if you get hit 600 times literally by four different punchers, at some point, your glass jaw should be cracked. Sure he blanked many dudes like Reggie Johnson, who was a KO artist, but he got hit plenty of times because he was fighting so much early on. Paz could've had 180 rounds and not laid a glove on Roy. When he had great defense showcases, it was a sight to see but there were rounds he just completely took off.

Other than Corrales, who was going to test Floyd's chin? He was having those wars with those guys because he didn't fear anything come back from them. I mean he didn't fight Acelino Freitas who probably would have did that. That Margarito fight came and went when Floyd was at 140 and heading to welterweight and Margarito was WBO champ at 147. Cotto and Floyd didn't fight until Cotto was at like 154. Floyd could take a punch but he wasn't fighting known punchers. McGregor in 4 oz gloves can hit, but the guy never had a pro boxing fight with boxing gloves on. Was Conor gonna slap him to death? 

If you're fighting known punchers and beating them easily despite get hit a fairly decent amount in your prime, I can't penalize you all that much when clearly you're not the same fighter and losing to lesser punchers. 22 year old Roy Jones would have clowned Tarver and taken his best punches. Shit, 19 year old Roy Jones would have done that. But when you're not the same fighter, damn near anything can happen. That's my point.

 

[The Natural]

Looking forward to this. Rarely said that about UFC in 2017.

Three great title fights. Intrigue seeing what GSP we'll get, Garbrandt vs. Dillashaw after Cody's great performance against Cruz and Joanna Champion in action. Going with GSP, Cody and Joanna by decisions.

We also get the traditional Hendricks vs. Fucking Scales too!

[Elsalvajeloco]

FWIW Hendricks made weight. I believe Joanna is the last one that needs to weigh in at the early weigh ins. She has about nine minutes to do that.

[The Natural]

We'll see how GSP copes as he's older, the injuries and the new weight class.

If Bisping beats GSP,  having Anderson Silva, Dan Henderson and GSP as wins is most impressive as names.

[The Natural]

1 minute ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

FWIW Hendricks made weight. I believe Joanna is the last one that needs to weigh in at the early weigh ins. She has about nine minutes to do that.

First I've heard.Thanks.

[Elsalvajeloco]

Joanna made weight with 4 minutes to spare so that's everyone.

[J.T.]

2 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Joanna made weight with 4 minutes to spare so that's everyone.

Hmm.  She was on Live with Kelly and Ryan this morning around 9AM EST.  That could explain the delay in getting to the weigh-in, if indeed the television taping was today.

 

[J.T.]

20 hours ago, supremebve said:

 The secret about Roy Jones Jr. is that he has a glass jaw, he was just fast enough to not get hit cleanly for most of his prime. 

IIRC Three of Roy's nine career losses were by KO and two were by TKO.  I'm not sure how that equates to him having a glass jaw, especially since it was five years in between his last two losses by KO.

Two of those career losses were more of a testament to Antonio Tarver's punching power and less about RJ Jr. being unable to take a shot.

I think that is just an Arlovsky thing where you're more susceptible to being KOed after being KOed the first time in your career because you fight to avoid being knocked out rather than fighting to win.

Defending Jones has caused me to believe that I owe GSP an apology for my previous comments.  I suppose I should've said that he had an untested chin rather than a suspect chin.

[supremebve]

Just now, J.T. said:

Four of Roy's nine career losses were by KO and one was by TKO.  I'm not sure how that equates to him having a glass jaw, especially since it was five years in between his last two losses by KO.

I think that is just an Arlovsky thing where you're more susceptible to being KOed after being KOed the first time in your career because you fight to avoid being knocked out rather than fighting to win.

Glass jaw is probably an overstatement.  He doesn't take damage well, and among fighters at his level in history he isn't very durable at all.  He's legitimately an all-time great fighter, and was the pound for pound king for a good long while, but once he slowed down he was much more susceptible to getting upset by a lesser fighter than other fighters of his skill level.  Most great fighters can extend their careers with their combination of acquired skill, experience, and their ability to withstand punishment.  Everyone from Ali, to Floyd, to Hopkins all slowed down with age, but were able to extend their careers because they were durable enough to withstand the extra punishment they took.  Roy Jones went from the pound to pound king to an afterthought, because he couldn't withstand the punishment he would have to take at the championship level.  

If we can't say Arlovsky has a glass jaw we should probably retire the term.  

[Elsalvajeloco]

8 hours ago, supremebve said:

Glass jaw is probably an overstatement.  He doesn't take damage well, and among fighters at his level in history he isn't very durable at all.  He's legitimately an all-time great fighter, and was the pound for pound king for a good long while, but once he slowed down he was much more susceptible to getting upset by a lesser fighter than other fighters of his skill level.  Most great fighters can extend their careers with their combination of acquired skill, experience, and their ability to withstand punishment.  Everyone from Ali, to Floyd, to Hopkins all slowed down with age, but were able to extend their careers because they were durable enough to withstand the extra punishment they took.  Roy Jones went from the pound to pound king to an afterthought, because he couldn't withstand the punishment he would have to take at the championship level.  

If we can't say Arlovsky has a glass jaw we should probably retire the term.  

People forget but Roy was a bad motherfucker when he was high school sophomore age. This dude was clowning world championship level veterans in the gym at 15 and 16 years old. Very few dudes are that good that young. However, we've seen in boxing especially, most of those dudes are shot by 26 or 27 especially if they fight regularly. Honestly, I thought he would have maybe another 1 or 2 years at the top maybe and probably get another random HW title strap. How many dudes in boxing are having twenty year runs as a tremendous amateur and winning titles in multiple weight classes? We've seen Olympic gold medalists have a great 4 or 5 year run (basically one Olympic cycle) and then have 3 or 4 good years as a pro for a good nine years max. That's been the norm for the better part of 10 or 15 years at least (especially if we look at the UK/Irish boxing scene and the Cubans). Roy Jones Jr, with the help of PEDs and some lousy opponents here and there admittedly, managed to do that for another decade plus. So anybody who does that is an automatic first ballot hall of famer.  

Ali and Floyd are anomalies partly because first off, Ali reached that point in 76 or 77 where any punishment he took clearly contributed to his steep physical decline until we get to the Holmes and Berbick fights where it was downright sad to watch. I think the time off from 67 to 70 helped extend Ali's career more than his style. If we added three or four more years of punishment on Ali, there is no way he would made out a fight like that third fight with Frazier by that point. He would have literally died in the ring. Floyd had like three or four extended hiatuses from the sport. Plus, Floyd was a tremendous career manager and probably the best boxer to ever guide his own career. He didn't fight the guys he didn't have to fight. He chose when to fight Cotto, Mosley (who was begging for that fight years earlier IIRC), Hatton, Pacquiao, etc. The list of guys he didn't fight from 130 to 154 would get another boxer in the HOF on the resume alone regardless of win/loss records.

Hopkins changed his style to fit some of his best attributes. I watched the Hopkins/Keith Holmes fight from the middleweight tourney where Trinidad/Joppy was the other fight. I mean the fight was boring as all hell, but that was Bernard Hopkins. He took literally zero risks unless he had to steal a round. He was physically capable of doing that because he knew all the little tricks. Plus, I think he knew it was wise not to just start brawling and trading with the cream of the crop. I mean he could take Felix's best punches since Felix at best was a big junior middleweight, but he never really tried to and just stuck to that formula until he was able pour it on Trinidad from the middle rounds on before eventually getting a very impressive stoppage.

I'm not saying Roy was like this granite chin dude because certainly with that athletic prowess, you don't have to be. But could he take a punch on the temple trying to hop backwards and shell up against the ropes? Certainly because his particular style needed that because he had to rest a bit at some point with all that movement. Now once he got older and his reflexes were more inconsistent, any shot on the temple or edge of the jaw while he was doing that would put him down easily. However, that's what comes with being out of your prime or being a shot fighter. The stuff you would just eat all day in a fight is the stuff that gets you out of there with the quickness later in your career. That's fighting. 

Getting back to GSP, I think in hindsight a prime GSP would be an easy 50-45 or 49-46 3x against a Johny Hendricks and Carlos Condit. The high kick that Condit got him with is something the GSP prior to the first Serra fight would have ran into. Granted, I knew at the time that GSP wanted to walk away from the sport a year or so before he actually did it but I think there were clear signs of physical depreciation even considering that. Will the four years off rejuvenate him? Probably so because being mentally checked out is dangerous in fighting but I am not willing to disregard what I saw in those fights. In the same token, I am not disregarding what Bisping has shown to be his shortcomings over the years. However, right now based on the evidence I've been presented, I feel a little bit more confident in a pick for Michael Bisping.

[J.T.]

57 minutes ago, supremebve said:

If we can't say Arlovsky has a glass jaw we should probably retire the term.  

Yeah, but part of the problem is that he's suffered so many brutal KOs over his career that he fights to avoid being hurt rather than fighting to win and he panics when he's forced to fight on his back foot.

Too many fighters have cracked the code on how to beat him thanks to Fedor.

13 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

However, right now based on the evidence I've been presented, I feel a little bit more confident in a pick for Michael Bisping.

The main event is a pick 'em as far as the Vegas odds go. 

Most of the chatter on some of the boards I lurk seem to believe that Bisping will come out with a chip on his shoulder and win a war of attrition while others think that GSP wins by keeping the fight on the ground.

 

[supremebve]

10 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Getting back to GSP, I think in hindsight a prime GSP would be an easy 50-45 or 49-46 3x against a Johny Hendricks and Carlos Condit. The high kick that Condit got him with is something the GSP prior to the first Serra fight would have ran into. Granted, I knew at the time that GSP wanted to walk away from the sport a year or so before he actually did it but I think there were clear signs of physical depreciation even considering that. Will the four years rejuvenate him? Probably so because being mentally checked out is dangerous in fighting but I am not willing to disregard what I saw in those fights. In the same token, I am not disregarding what Bisping has shown to be his shortcomings over the years. However, right now based on the evidence I've been presented, I feel a little bit more confident in a pick for Michael Bisping.

I think Bisping should win, but I also know that this is the exact kind of fight Bisping has spent his entire career losing.  The last we saw GSP he was an elite fighter who won(or "won") a title fight against Johnny Hendricks when he was at the very worst #2 welterweight in the world.  He wasn't who he was at his peak, but GSP was  at worst the 2nd or 3rd best fighter in a really deep, talent rich division.  How many middleweights in the world would you pick over Michael Bisping right now?  When was the last time you thought Michael Bisping was the best fighter in his division?  Remember he was supposed to fight Rockhold for the title, he was a late replacement.  He won a fight that we all thought he would lose, before almost getting knocked out by a geriatric Dan Henderson.  He is a good fighter, but he isn't elite and has never been elite. I don't know what the hell GSP is going to bring to the table, but I do know that the last time we saw GSP he was better than Michael Bisping.  Michael Bisping is bigger and stronger, and possibly the better striker...but he is there to be hit, can't see out of one of his eyes, and before he knocked out Luke Rockhold nobody thought he had knockout power.  Thales Leites was able to hit Bisping pretty regularly in their fight, and Leites ain't exactly GSP.  Bisping lost the Anderson Silva fight before somehow winning it.  Do we really think GSP is more washed up than Anderson SIlva?  I kind of think Bisping is going to win, but there is a huge part of me who thinks that the last few years of Bisping's career is just a long con based on luck and circumstance to make us believe he's better than he actually is.

[Elsalvajeloco]

21 minutes ago, supremebve said:

 When was the last time you thought Michael Bisping was the best fighter in his division? 

Right now because he is the champion and I value titles. You are the best guy in that division until someone takes it away from you. Like I said in another thread (probably MMA Talk) in reference to this, I don't do the whole "well, X guy can beat so and so". Well, X guy isn't champ yet. Remember when Stephen Thompson was suppose to walk over Tyron Woodley? Stephen Thompson won 1 and 1/2 rounds out of TEN rounds against Tyron Woodley. So all I'm concerned about is who is champ now so we will hit that road when we get to it. This thread ain't Whittaker or Romero vs. GSP, it's Bisping vs. GSP. If GSP wins, he will be the best dude in the division until someone proves otherwise  whether I not I favor every other MW against him.

As far as who is more washed up? If you don't fight for four years, yeah, I can't tell if you are better or worse than you were before. That's what being active is for.

[supremebve]

2 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Right now because he is the champion and I value titles. You are the best guy in that division until someone takes it away from you. Like I said in another thread (probably MMA Talk) in reference to this, I don't do the whole "well, X guy can beat so and so". Well, X guy isn't champ yet. Remember when Stephen Thompson was suppose to walk over Tyron Woodley? Stephen Thompson won 1 and 1/2 rounds out of TEN rounds against Tyron Woodley. So all I'm concerned about is who is champ now so we will hit that road when we get to it. This thread ain't Whittaker or Romero vs. GSP, it's Bisping vs. GSP. If GSP wins, he will be the best dude in the division until someone proves otherwise  whether I not I favor every other MW against him.

As far as who is more washed up? If you don't fight for four years, yeah, I can't tell if you are better or worse than you were before. That's what being active is for.

I value titles as well, but being the best and being the champion are two completely different things.  This is a sport where anyone can beat anyone on the right day, so I try to look at these things more objectively.  Michael Bisping is at best the 5th best middleweight in my estimation.  He's a guy who could beat any one in the top 5, but I wouldn't put any money on him beating any of them.  I'm weird about this type of thing.  Other than the NBA when the best team wins 99% of the time, I don't necessarily look at the champion as the best team all of the time.  The 2007 New England Patriots were a better team than the New York Giants, but they lost the Super Bowl.  I don't take anything away from them for winning the Super Bowl, I'm just not going to say they were better than the Patriots that year, because they weren't.  Michael Bisping is the rightful champion and deserves everything that comes with being the champion.  There is absolutely no way in the world you can convince me he is the best middleweight in the world.  He isn't, he's the champion.  The champion is a title that is bestowed upon the man who beat the last champion, being the best is something that doesn't have to be bestowed upon you.  I don't really buy into MMAth either, but GSP has the best resume in the history of the sport.  No one has beaten more legitimately great fighters than Georges St. Pierre.  Michael Bisping has beaten one fighter who I would consider great and in his prime in his entire career.  That was Luke Rockhold, and I honestly don't think he'd beat him again if they fought 20 more times.  He'd have a chance in every fight, but so does every other top 10 middleweight.  His ability to beat him the one time it counted should be celebrated, but doesn't make him the better fighter.