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Sexual Assault and Harassment in Hollywood

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Am I wrong in thinking Vince McMahon should be a little worried?

Not that he was ever Weinstein. I hope not, at least.

But, eh...the man hasn't exactly been a saint when it comes to women in his company. He admitted that himself in that Playboy interview. 

Floodgates and all.

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I get the feeling there is a world of difference between the question:

"Should Vince McMahon be worried about x thing he does?"

The answer of which is "HOLY FUCKING HE SHIT HE DID WHAT????? I'M WORRIED JUST KNOWING HE EXISTS AND ALSO HOW IS HE STILL ALIVE"

and the question:

"Is Vince McMahon worried about x thing he does?"

The answer of which is "Does he have anymore of those pills left? Yeah, he's fine."

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52 minutes ago, Reed said:

Am I wrong in thinking Vince McMahon should be a little worried?

Not that he was ever Weinstein. I hope not, at least.

But, eh...the man hasn't exactly been a saint when it comes to women in his company. He admitted that himself in that Playboy interview. 

Floodgates and all.

It's honestly a little shocking that he hasn't been dragged through the mud, on one hand: WWE is "rasslin" and not "real entertainment", there's a paper trail of him not being a saint to women, he's connected to the Trump administration (so if there's a "Liberal vs. Conservative" bias, he'd be on the wrong side), and there's the Rita Chatterton situation so there's at LEAST one accused rape on his record.

 

If anything stops it, it'd likely be the fact that if anything, fans whine too much for the people who know Vince is a slimeball not to be seen as a "boy who cried wolf" situation (and the fact the fans would wear their heart on their sleeve and make it clear they WANT Vince and Dunn to lose power for Based Haitch to take over hurts their credibility.). Let the record show that it's 2017, people KNOW DAMN WELL now that making those claims is disgusting, and yet a lot of fans (not here, but way too many to count) have no problem with claiming women like Alexa Bliss used the casting couch to get their push, solely because she's at the top and their favorite women's wrestler isn't (and if their favorite was at the top, fans of other women would claim the same about HER.) 

 

Throw in the fact that every wrestler tends to think the call from Vince is just one second away if they don't ruin it, and it's unfortunately likely Vince is safe because it's almost impossible to sift through the sour grapes, hearsay, and innuendo and get to conclusive proof.

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2 hours ago, Oyaji said:

When was the golden age of American civility?

...exactly. 

Reservoir Dogs was just on Ovation. I'm gonna get a bad taste in my mouth every time I watch a Tarantino film now, I guess (though I probably should for every Hollywood film really)

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WWF already went thru this in the early 90s when the steroid scandal hit at the same time as the ring boy scandal and I think the business with Rita Chatterton did too. Vince was also accused of molesting a male ring announcer, though he was able to prove that was extortion.  It is weird people try to extort him for sexually assaulting men. That has to be a hit to his masculinity, 

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11 minutes ago, Victator said:

WWF already went thru this in the early 90s when the steroid scandal hit at the same time as the ring boy scandal and I think the business with Rita Chatterton did too. Vince was also accused of molesting a male ring announcer, though he was able to prove that was extortion.  It is weird people try to extort him for sexually assaulting men. That has to be a hit to his masculinity, 

Of course, but even then, considering the info is out there already, it's surprising it hasn't been brought up again in this climate. 

It wouldn't be the first time- Cosby's crimes were known about for at least ten years before Hannibal Burress brought them to the forefront and they stuck.

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36 minutes ago, SorceressKnight said:

Of course, but even then, considering the info is out there already, it's surprising it hasn't been brought up again in this climate. 

It wouldn't be the first time- Cosby's crimes were known about for at least ten years before Hannibal Burress brought them to the forefront and they stuck.

Yeah but the WWF scandals were national news. 

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I wouldn't get too entrenched with lib/conservative thing simply because the money is flowing back and forth. The one constant thing these people have allegiance to is power and the control that comes with it. The example I would use since I'm very familiar with this is the UFC. Ari Emanuel who heads WME/IMG and bought the UFC last year is a big Trump guy. His big brother is Rahm Emanuel. So that lesser of two evils democrat and republican shit is out of the window. I think they have enough money to where the different ideologies and philosophies don't come up at the dinner table. When your family is that powerful and influential in entertainment, business, and politics, you can be a Populist, Whig, or make up your own goddamn political party. It's some real life Randolph and Mortimer Duke shit.

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11 hours ago, Tabe said:

It's  actually incredibly easy. All it takes is saying something that gets overhead and misconstrued. 

This can be avoided if you have even the least bit of tact.  There is a woman at my job that I've gone on multiple dates with and we have a very flirty relationship.  Nobody at my job would ever know based on how we interact with each other at work.  I find a way to tell her how good she looks in front of people all of the time, I just don't actually say anything that anyone else would take as inappropriate.  I just tell her with inside jokes and/or compliment something else.  She knows what I'm talking about when I say something about her shoes, but no one else needs to know.  If there is something I want to say that someone might be offended by or could misconstrue I send a text message.  

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7 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I wouldn't get too entrenched with lib/conservative thing simply because the money is flowing back and forth. The one constant thing these people have allegiance to is power and the control that comes with it. The example I would use since I'm very familiar with this is the UFC. Ari Emanuel who heads WME/IMG and bought the UFC last year is a big Trump guy. His big brother is Rahm Emanuel. So that lesser of two evils democrat and republican shit is out of the window. I think they have enough money to where the different ideologies and philosophies don't come up at the dinner table. When your family is that powerful and influential in entertainment, business, and politics, you can be a Populist, Whig, or make up your own goddamn political party. It's some real life Randolph and Mortimer Duke shit.

Caitlyn Jenner voted Trump and is a conservative. This is a transgender lady with a step-daughter who did porn, a mixed raced family  and black grandchildren. Not exactly the republican party's cup of tea.

It is pretty much about money and lower taxes a lot of the time. 

Then there's Shane trying to invest in weed-growing companies while his mother works for an administration that is going totally WAR ON DRUGZ crazy right now.  

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27 minutes ago, supremebve said:

This can be avoided if you have even the least bit of tact.  There is a woman at my job that I've gone on multiple dates with and we have a very flirty relationship.  Nobody at my job would ever know based on how we interact with each other at work.  I find a way to tell her how good she looks in front of people all of the time, I just don't actually say anything that anyone else would take as inappropriate.  I just tell her with inside jokes and/or compliment something else.  She knows what I'm talking about when I say something about her shoes, but no one else needs to know.  If there is something I want to say that someone might be offended by or could misconstrue I send a text message.  

Thanks for this.  Your reply was better than the 5-6 I wrote and then deleted.  What you said is completely accurate and even extends to normal work friendships.  I'm at a level with people in my department where we'll make off the cuff comments, jokes, etc. that HR would find inappropriate, but we all know each other and are fine with it.  When we're in the company of people who aren't in our group, we just don't talk like that.  It's really not that difficult.  I just got out of a meeting with my boss where we were joking around about some stuff.  We're not going to talk the same way around the CEO. 

I think the Venn diagram of "people who don't know how to keep inappropriate conversations away from mixed company" and "people who can't help but say shitty things to women" is a perfect circle.  Defending this shit with "well actually it's really easy to accidentally be accused of harassment" is some MRA bullshit.

 

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whether or not behavior is appropriate has a lot do how the person on the receiving end feels about it. which is why it is wise to err on the side of caution in a workplace environment. 

i'll give an example from my office. i've worked with a few women for close to a decade. we might be a little too comfortable with each other. I will often compliment them when they  get dressed up or just had their hair done. I don't believe these type of comments are being construed in a sexual way. i believe they are being construed for what they are. I'm trying to be nice. 

however, there is a second person in my office who has been known to make comments that have made these same women uncomfortable. for example,  one of the women was recently wearing a fragrant perfume. he told her he liked it and asked for the name so he could buy it for his wife. 

i do not believe my co-worker was trying to be inappropriate but that is how it was interpreted. meanwhile i'm sure i could've made that same comment and it would have been construed as a compliment. 

so the question would be, was what my co-worker did inappropriate?

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13 minutes ago, JohnnyJ said:

so the question would be, was what my co-worker did inappropriate?

As a middle manager who has to take mandatory sexual harassment training annually, I have to say that it is.  It's absolutely subjective, but the test for "inappropriate" is: "did the person you said it to find it inappropriate?"  I mean, it has to be within reason.  You can't get called on the carpet because someone thought you saying "hi" was sexually suggestive (unless you had your hand down your pants when you said it). But  it gets the point across that, if there's even a question in your mind as to how something might be taken, just don't say it.  As you said, err on the side of caution. 

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Implying that you want the woman you have sex with regularly to smell like a co-worker is inappropriate, yes.

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You should probably know your audience before you do something like that.  I remember I was in the breakroom when one female coworker told another that she liked her perfume and wanted to know what it was.  She replied that it was Beyonce's fragrance and said thank you.  When the other woman walked out of the room I looked at my coworker and asked, "Are you telling me you smell like Beyonce?'  She gave me a side eye smirk and laughed, but this is a woman I knew I could joke with like that.  She's someone I would go to happy hour with and had that kind of relationship.  I wouldn't have done that to the other woman, because our relationship is strictly professional.  This isn't hard guys.  Don't do anything that can be considered inappropriate with people who didn't sign up to receive your inappropriate behavior. 

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3 hours ago, Technico Support said:

As a middle manager who has to take mandatory sexual harassment training annually, I have to say that it is.  It's absolutely subjective, but the test for "inappropriate" is: "did the person you said it to find it inappropriate?"  I mean, it has to be within reason.  You can't get called on the carpet because someone thought you saying "hi" was sexually suggestive (unless you had your hand down your pants when you said it). But  it gets the point across that, if there's even a question in your mind as to how something might be taken, just don't say it.  As you said, err on the side of caution. 

But that's the same problem- if it's absolutely subjective, then it's gone past "accidentally harassment" (which can be solved if you have some tact and respect for the workers) and into the real problem: You don't have to do anything at all.

If it's subjective, then ANYTHING the woman wants to say is harassment, even if you just say hello (or from these, even if you DON'T say hello), can be seen as harassment. 

In addition, newsflash: Women can be ruthless in the boardroom just like men can- and right now, sexual harassment and assault charges are a silver bullet that is a guaranteed trump card for them. If the woman decides "I want your job" or "If I can't have that promotion I don't want you to have it either?" Show up and claim you harassed them. It's all subjective, so anything you said or didn't say can be construed as harassment. If you protest...well, of COURSE the sexual harasser's going to protest, that's proof they did it. And even if you can find conclusive proof that they're lying through their teeth...are YOU going to be the evil bastard who'd dare say this innocent little flower is lying about being sexually harassed?

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6 minutes ago, SorceressKnight said:

But that's the same problem- if it's absolutely subjective, then it's gone past "accidentally harassment" (which can be solved if you have some tact and respect for the workers) and into the real problem: You don't have to do anything at all.

If it's subjective, then ANYTHING the woman wants to say is harassment, even if you just say hello (or from these, even if you DON'T say hello), can be seen as harassment. 

In addition, newsflash: Women can be ruthless in the boardroom just like men can- and right now, sexual harassment and assault charges are a silver bullet that is a guaranteed trump card for them. If the woman decides "I want your job" or "If I can't have that promotion I don't want you to have it either?" Show up and claim you harassed them. It's all subjective, so anything you said or didn't say can be construed as harassment. If you protest...well, of COURSE the sexual harasser's going to protest, that's proof they did it. And even if you can find conclusive proof that they're lying through their teeth...are YOU going to be the evil bastard who'd dare say this innocent little flower is lying about being sexually harassed?

Is it possible that you work with a sociopathic woman who lives to ruin lives and careers of men?  Yes, but those women are few and far between.  There are far more lecherous dudes making women feel unsafe in the workplace than women who decide to falsely accuse men for sexual harassment.  This is pure nonsense.  That dude was demanding sexual favors from women for years. That is a much bigger problem than the slim possibility that some woman decides to lie about being sexually harassed.  

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I would put the over/under of women who used a fake sexual harassment/assault claim to advance their career at exactly zero.

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39 minutes ago, SorceressKnight said:

But that's the same problem- if it's absolutely subjective, then it's gone past "accidentally harassment" (which can be solved if you have some tact and respect for the workers) and into the real problem: You don't have to do anything at all.

If it's subjective, then ANYTHING the woman wants to say is harassment, even if you just say hello (or from these, even if you DON'T say hello), can be seen as harassment. 

In addition, newsflash: Women can be ruthless in the boardroom just like men can- and right now, sexual harassment and assault charges are a silver bullet that is a guaranteed trump card for them. If the woman decides "I want your job" or "If I can't have that promotion I don't want you to have it either?" Show up and claim you harassed them. It's all subjective, so anything you said or didn't say can be construed as harassment. If you protest...well, of COURSE the sexual harasser's going to protest, that's proof they did it. And even if you can find conclusive proof that they're lying through their teeth...are YOU going to be the evil bastard who'd dare say this innocent little flower is lying about being sexually harassed?

Those are the rules, man.  Established because everyone has different boundaries and it's easier to say, "if you're unsure, just don't" than it is to lay out every conceivable situation or comment that qualifies as "inappropriate" or "harassment."  And yes, by that rule, anything could be harassment.  But it doesn't really work that way in the real world.  I can tell you that nobody tries the "whatever I think is harassment is harassment" approach.  I know my HR Director would shut down anybody arguing "he didn't say anything outwardly weird or sexual, I just didn't like the way he said 'hello'" very quickly.  Like I said, the rule doesn't exist that way to create some safe haven where poor innocent men can be accused with impunity.  It's there so anyone with half a brain will know to err on the side of caution. 

It seems you have this weird image of predatory women just looking for something to use as a harassment claim, or outright just lying to get one going.  As @Greggulator just said, I doubt that really happens.  This isn't "Disclosure."

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29 minutes ago, Greggulator said:

I would put the over/under of women who used a fake sexual harassment/assault claim to advance their career at exactly zero.

I'm sure it has happened, but it's a different topic. there's a big difference between a he said/she said over interpretations of workplace behavior and malicious false accusations.

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1 hour ago, Technico Support said:

Those are the rules, man.  Established because everyone has different boundaries and it's easier to say, "if you're unsure, just don't" than it is to lay out every conceivable situation or comment that qualifies as "inappropriate" or "harassment."  And yes, by that rule, anything could be harassment.  But it doesn't really work that way in the real world.  I can tell you that nobody tries the "whatever I think is harassment is harassment" approach.  I know my HR Director would shut down anybody arguing "he didn't say anything outwardly weird or sexual, I just didn't like the way he said 'hello'" very quickly.  Like I said, the rule doesn't exist that way to create some safe haven where poor innocent men can be accused with impunity.  It's there so anyone with half a brain will know to err on the side of caution. 

It seems you have this weird image of predatory women just looking for something to use as a harassment claim, or outright just lying to get one going.  As @Greggulator just said, I doubt that really happens.  This isn't "Disclosure."

It's not even just that there's predatory women looking for something to use or outright just lying, as much as the fact even beyond the fact Weinstein OBVIOUSLY DID IT, it can't just be said as "just don't do anything."

It is the fact that all the sex crimes- sexual harassment, assault, paternity suits- they're all no-win situations  for men. It's not just that it's not innocent until proven guilty, or even just "if you have it, you're guilty until proven innocent", or even "guilty until proven completely exonerated", but that it is at "If you have these crimes, it's guilty until proven completely exonerated...and EVEN IF you're completely exonerated, the court of public opinion will just claim you're the bastard who did it and got off on a technicality."

That has to be kept in mind with these rules.

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8 hours ago, supremebve said:

This can be avoided if you have even the least bit of tact.  There is a woman at my job that I've gone on multiple dates with and we have a very flirty relationship.  Nobody at my job would ever know based on how we interact with each other at work.  I find a way to tell her how good she looks in front of people all of the time, I just don't actually say anything that anyone else would take as inappropriate.  I just tell her with inside jokes and/or compliment something else.  She knows what I'm talking about when I say something about her shoes, but no one else needs to know.  If there is something I want to say that someone might be offended by or could misconstrue I send a text message.  

You misunderstood. I'm saying all it takes is somebody you don't even know is there to overhear something not intended for them. 

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The way we had SHARP and harassment drilled into us the last few years, it's amazing there is any inter-office dating at all. 

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4 hours ago, SorceressKnight said:

It's not even just that there's predatory women looking for something to use or outright just lying, as much as the fact even beyond the fact Weinstein OBVIOUSLY DID IT, it can't just be said as "just don't do anything."

It is the fact that all the sex crimes- sexual harassment, assault, paternity suits- they're all no-win situations  for men. It's not just that it's not innocent until proven guilty, or even just "if you have it, you're guilty until proven innocent", or even "guilty until proven completely exonerated", but that it is at "If you have these crimes, it's guilty until proven completely exonerated...and EVEN IF you're completely exonerated, the court of public opinion will just claim you're the bastard who did it and got off on a technicality."

That has to be kept in mind with these rules.

I don't even know what to think of this. Other than this mindset is why a lot of women don't bother going to authorities and courts when they've been assaulted or dealing with a deadbeat parent. Because the worst is already thought about them, and they have to twisted themselves into knots to prove that they're 'good' and 'clean' in everyone's eyes. It's being abused twice when the first time shouldn't have happened.

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