DANIEL BRYAN *IS* WRESTLING AGAIN

[Technico Support]

1 hour ago, Ace said:

Most professional wrestlers aren't in WWE.

 

 

I'm sure everyone but you took it to mean WWE, but go ahead and do your thing.

[Ace]

I don't know why they would, since the thread's specifically talking about a guy who plans to wrestle outside of WWE in the first place.

 

[Craig H]

4 hours ago, Technico Support said:

Raw is Friday - Monday plus PPVs.  That adds up to around 200.  But if you want to add in time off, maybe shows where guys promo but don't wrestle, etc., then, what, 150?  125?  How many dates would you say they are in the ring working?  Regardless, Bryan apparently wants 60 dates.  Until he shows otherwise, that's 60 dates of bad bumps, headfirst dives, and flying headbutts.  All on a guy with a diagnosed brain lesion, double digit concussions, and at least four admitted seizures.  Sounds like a wise choice.

I listened to the interview on E&C's podcast and the craziest thing to me was how nonchalant he was about having four...FOUR...post-concussion related seizures. That's fucking crazy. An old friend of mine from years and years ago who went to play in the NFL, Kris Dielman, retired after one post-concussion related seizure and he's my age, 36. DB had four of the fucking things.

Before I listened to that interview I thought I would give DB the benefit of the doubt and maybe things weren't as bad as they looked. And then the first fucking thing he talks about is Dave Asprey and his "bulletproof" snake oil bullshit. Then later he talks nonchalantly about his 10 documented concussions, his four seizures, and the lesion on his brain. That shit doesn't heal. There is no healthy brain state he can return to. His baseline is now that of a concussed brain and one concussed enough to cause him to suffer from seizures. The way he sounds is that through this treatment his brain can get back to a state of a healthy person, but that isn't possible.

He's chasing the dragon and it's sad to hear how obsessed he is. Regardless of the amount of dates he works, regardless if he works a safe style, there's no guarantee he's going to work a style that doesn't require him to take any bumps. The chances of that happening are slim to none.

I'm hoping for the best and that nothing bad happens to the guy. When I listen to him though, he sounds like an addict using any matter of rationalizing to show that what he's trying to do isn't that risky, when it is. I mean, he talked about that study of the 110 brains and was nearly totally dismissive of it. I just sat there and shook my head.
 

[MORELOCK]

31 minutes ago, Ace said:

I don't know why they would, since the thread's specifically talking about a guy who plans to wrestle outside of WWE in the first place.

You're splitting hairs by talking about number of dates he'd be working anyhow - literally one date would put him in grave danger.

[Ace]

Now we're getting hyperbolic. If we're truly concerned with safety, the entire business should be shut down along with any combat sport and the NFL.

 

 

 

[MORELOCK]

11 minutes ago, Ace said:

Now we're getting hyperbolic. If we're truly concerned with safety, the entire business should be shut down along with any combat sport and the NFL.

 

On 8/22/2017 at 1:26 PM, MORELOCK said:

This is a giant leap that people are making to justify wanting to see Bryan in the ring again - which is fine, I'm not casting moral judgment on anyone. I'm not saying "everyone should be scared shitless like me or they are clearly a bad person." But there is a huge difference between "wrestling as a sport is inherently dangerous to everyone" and "Daniel Bryan had regular seizures." There is a reason to be fearful of him specifically getting in the ring and it doesn't have to imply that you should be as fearful of every wrestler getting in the ring.

 

I guess I should have expected this thread to end up going in circles.

[Craig H]

Right. You and I don't agree on a whole lot, but me being concerned for DB isn't the same as it is for everyone else. I would be just as concerned if it came out that Joe, Finn, or Braun suffered from multiple concussions, each one being easier to sustain than the one before it, and suffered from other effects from those concussions. Doesn't mean the whole industry should be shut down, but maybe in this particular instance, and the same goes for Tommy Dreamer and others, it's time to hang em up.

[The Nature Boy]

Is there a compromise where Bryan doesn't work house shows and only does TV? Protect him in tag matches and the rare singles match on RAW/SmackDown. He does the big matches on PPV.

I get that today's style doesn't allow for toned down TV matches but that's a style issue that needs to be addressed anyway. 

 

[Ryan]

You're missing the bigger picture here, it doesn't matter if he works a few dates or a thousand. One bad bump or impact on anything and he could be fucked far worse than he already is. His brain is shot.

[Michael Sweetser]

Honestly, concussions scare the fuck out of me.  I've had two documented in my career - after the second one, I wasn't even aware anything was wrong until I went backstage, nearly threw up, and started bawling my eyes out while feeling just fine emotionally.  At that point, I never took another unprotected shot to the head again and was very careful with who I gave my body to in the ring.

I was also at the ECCW show where one of my best friends in wrestling, Aaron Bolo, took an enzuigiri and went into convulsions backstage afterward.  It ended his career, and the thing I remember most is being ten feet away and thinking that my friend was going to die in front of me, and there was nothing I could do about it (thankfully, one of the ECCW workers was an EMT, and he was stabilized and taken to the hospital).

And I don't think either situation is as bad as Bryan's potentially is.  Assuming that convulsing on SmackDown that one time wasn't a work (I'm pretty sure it wasn't but I never heard either way) that REALLY scares me.  

I don't fault him for wanting to wrestle again, or for finding a second (and third, and fourth) opinion that says he'll be fine to wrestle again.  I just really, REALLY hope he's right.

[Ryan]

Stay safe out there, Mike, don't do any moonsaults off balconies or anything. That would be kind of amusing to see the result of if you were caught well though.

[Michael Sweetser]

34 minutes ago, Ryan said:

Stay safe out there, Mike, don't do any moonsaults off balconies or anything. That would be kind of amusing to see the result of if you were caught well though.

I'm 38 years old.  These feet are staying planted, thank you.

[Ryan]

Maybe you'll just do a trust fall dive.

[Ace]

4 hours ago, Ryan said:

You're missing the bigger picture here, it doesn't matter if he works a few dates or a thousand. One bad bump or impact on anything and he could be fucked far worse than he already is. His brain is shot.

I seem to have forgotten when this board became neurology experts. How the flying fuck do we know what shape his brain is in?

 

[Ryan]

Basic understanding of how concussions and what he's said about his symptoms and after effects do to the human brain. Ask someone with concussion issues, you'll find out a lot about how messed up it is.

[Phantom Lord]

Matt Hardy posted The Hardy's schedule for the next two weeks on his twitter earlier and The Hardy's have 6 shows with just a day and a half off in between. I'm honestly how the top guys work that schedule. do the same exact match every night and don't end up with more crippling injuries. But as for Bryan, I think if he does come back to wrestling he'll be smart enough to work a more grounded style.

Obviously he's not going to do 200-250 shows a year. The WWE backed themselves into a corner and they won't clear him even though they'll let people with far worse body's wrestle at times. He'll, walk for less money elsewhere but he'll get to wrestle maybe 30 or 40 times a year so it's not a bad deal.

[The Natural]

Quick reply as I'm in the library. As you'll know, big Daniel Bryan fan. One of my five favourite wrestlers ever and I was fortunate to see him live because two days after he was pulled from the tour. I'd rather not see Bryan with the risks and thinking back to how he came back from his neck surgery taking fucking half nelson suplexes from Luke Harper.

[Technico Support]

3 hours ago, Phantom Lord said:

But as for Bryan, I think if he does come back to wrestling he'll be smart enough to work a more grounded style.

 

I was about to reply to this but natural did it for me.

1 hour ago, The Natural said:

...and thinking back to how he came back from his neck surgery taking fucking half nelson suplexes from Luke Harper.

He's already proven he's unable to tone it down.  The kind of person who wants to still do this after suffering documented brain damage is not the kind of person who is going to be rational and safe about how he works.

[Craig H]

11 hours ago, Ace said:

I seem to have forgotten when this board became neurology experts. How the flying fuck do we know what shape his brain is in?

 

Are we wrong to take Daniel Bryan's words at face value then? Are we also wrong for looking at so many others with as many concussions as him, seeing the kind of shape they're in, seeing the kind of mindset Daniel Bryan has, and then making the educated guess that his brain may be in bad shape?

I think Daniel Bryan could work a match here and there similar to what HHH, Undertaker, and others do. His neck isn't made out of balsa wood so the fear of one bad bump putting him in a wheelchair isn't my fear. It's the thought of him working something like a slightly reduced NJPW schedule that worries me. How many years have Omega, Okada, and even Naito taken off of their careers from the past 12 months? Hell, Shibata ended his career in the last year. So maybe it does take one bad bump, one nasty headbutt to cause DB to suffer even worse brain damage, or he does it by trying to prove he's the best wrestler in the world and tries to do what Omega, Okada, Naito, Ishii, and others have done this year. If I take into consideration the damage that Bryan has already spoke of, then I'm sorry, I can't help but be concerned for just how much more damage he'll do to himself with even working a lighter schedule.

[Jiji]

19 hours ago, Craig H said:

Right. You and I don't agree on a whole lot, but me being concerned for DB isn't the same as it is for everyone else. I would be just as concerned if it came out that Joe, Finn, or Braun suffered from multiple concussions, each one being easier to sustain than the one before it, and suffered from other effects from those concussions. Doesn't mean the whole industry should be shut down, but maybe in this particular instance, and the same goes for Tommy Dreamer and others, it's time to hang em up.

Finn should retire too then. He worked for New Japan for how long too? I know it's not black and white but you'd be hard pressed finding a wrestler who hasn't had at least a handful of concussions and while we still have a lot to learn about CTE, it seems like the repetitive, smaller bumps are what do the most long term damage anyway. Most anytime you see stars, that's apparently a concussion. 

I understand both sides of the argument but I'm becoming more laissez-faire with athletes. They are grown men and women and should understand the risks they're taking. If they want to do whatever dangerous sport despite knowing said risks, then that's fine with me. I still don't like watching the NFL because it's just absurd the amount of head trauma going on there among other things, but I love combat sports and wrestling and understand it's incredibly hypocritical. Danielson is my favourite and part of me wants to see him tear it up in New Japan and CMLL, while the other part of me wants him to play it safe. I don't remember the specifics but Meltzer was saying Danielson had some doubts over the severity of the lesion they found. Sounds fishy but hopefully the extensive testing will allow him to make an informed decision. I've read his book and know how much wrestling means to him, so I get that he's not going to be entirely objective when making that decision. 

[Technico Support]

That FInn gif is actually a great argument for staying out of the ring.  There's no such thing as "working a safe style" when you have a doofus like Jinder going shoot Chris Hero on your head because his only qualifications to be in there are "Indian, is jacked."  No matter how few dates you work, you can't always account for the other guy's skill, and mistakes happen, as well.

Bret Hart's career didn't end from a bad bump, either.

[Beech27]

2 hours ago, Craig H said:

I think Daniel Bryan could work a match here and there similar to what HHH, Undertaker, and others do. His neck isn't made out of balsa wood so the fear of one bad bump putting him in a wheelchair isn't my fear. It's the thought of him working something like a slightly reduced NJPW schedule that worries me. How many years have Omega, Okada, and even Naito taken off of their careers from the past 12 months? Hell, Shibata ended his career in the last year. So maybe it does take one bad bump, one nasty headbutt to cause DB to suffer even worse brain damage, or he does it by trying to prove he's the best wrestler in the world and tries to do what Omega, Okada, Naito, Ishii, and others have done this year. If I take into consideration the damage that Bryan has already spoke of, then I'm sorry, I can't help but be concerned for just how much more damage he'll do to himself with even working a lighter schedule.

This is sorta beside the point, but I wonder if New Japan's schedule might be easier on a hypothetical wrestler--maybe (or maybe not) Danielson specifically. Sure, the main events are brutally physical, but (outside of the G1) singles matches are very rare, and there is actually appreciable time off between tours. Maybe the deluge of relatively lightly-worked multi-man tags, even combined with several stiff main events a year, spares the body more than 3-5 medium intensity singles matches a week does?

I don't know. (Nobody does.) But if I had to guess, I'd say it all comes back about equal, and we have a spectrum where even the brightest end is relatively grey. The problem with that sort of nihilism is it inevitably leads to question why anyone should bother looking for "safe" if it doesn't exist; whereas ideally, we wouldn't let a lack of a perfect option be the enemy of a search for something good. (Or if not good, at least better. I'd suggest the off time New Japan builds in, plus a 10-20% decrease in insane bumping--I'd actually enjoy the matches more this way regardless--might be something to aim for. Of course such a model could really only apply to touring companies, and independent wrestlers would necessarily keep working wherever and however they could.)

Ultimately, fans, promoters, and of course the wrestlers, are going to decide what is appropriate on a relatively case-by-case basis. All we can really say is that we need perpetually better testing and information so that those decisions can be made with, irony of ironies, as sound a mind as possible. 

[The Natural]

On ‎24‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 0:10 PM, Technico Support said:

I was about to reply to this but natural did it for me.

He's already proven he's unable to tone it down.  The kind of person who wants to still do this after suffering documented brain damage is not the kind of person who is going to be rational and safe about how he works.

Cheers, @Technico Support.

[Ryan]

I await him taking a dragon suplex off the top to the bare floor in his first match back.

[Brysynner]

On ‎8‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 5:26 PM, Ace said:

Now we're getting hyperbolic. If we're truly concerned with safety, the entire business should be shut down along with any combat sport and the NFL.

We're heading toward that path and it might be for the best. It's not going to happen overnight. But in my lifetime I'd expect to see the NFL evolve into something completely different than what we see. I could also see combat sports require headgear and go with smaller gloves or go bare knuckle (with the theory that less padding means you're less likely to do something that will hurt you).