SummerSlam XXX

[Michael Sweetser]

I truly do appreciate the work Jinder has put in to improving himself and his ring work to the point WWE considers him a viable World champion.  

I just don't want to actually see it.

[Go2Sleep]

Yeah Jinder's run is noticeably worse than JBL's, which was a pretty big flop at the time. Looking back, at least JBL had some decent brawls that are ok to watch out of context. I doubt anyone will look back at any of Jinder's run and be like "That wasn't as bad as I remembered."

[Beech27]

To be pedantic as hell: I think it's an open question how hard Jinder is working at being a professional wrestler, given the evidence we have to go on. He's working very hard at improving his physique--and yes, juicing like someone who just stumbled on the stuff, with none of the knowledge on how to stack/cycle we've had since the 70's--which is a part of the equation; but he's still working at an opening dark-match level. He should be building towards a US title challenge, at best. 

Nakamura probably isn't performing at the level a WWE champion should right now either*, but he's certainly more capable of "growing into it" than Jinder has demonstrated himself to be. He's also worked at that level before, so we know the ceiling is there. (I also think the problem with Shinsuke is less that he's lazy and more that the crowd just isn't interested in seeing him do the standard babyface routine of working from underneath and selling for 70% of a match.)

*AJ is right there. 

[Niners Fan in CT]

19 minutes ago, cwoy2j said:

The guy works VERY HARD but his ceiling is average and his floor is awful and has that India connection actually paid any dividends? The guy who is super over and doesn't give a crap seemingly does enough to get the people to give a crap about him. I'd rather see Nakamura phoning it in and being above average than see Jinder try his little heart out only to have the same paint by numbers match over and over again. I could try VERY HARD to manage someone's financial portfolio but that doesn't mean someone should pay me to do it.

I didn't say I agreed with it.  I've been the one championing Nakamura as a special attraction like a Brock Lesnar type because I feel he's best used in small doses.  But I can also see why they wouldn't do that.  I just don't see them ever really running with Nakamura as THE GUY because he doesn't fit the daytime talk shows, media stuff etc.  shit that they want out of THE GUY. 

I have no idea if having Jinder as champion has paid off. Apparently people in India are talking about it if you are to believe what WWE says but has it paid off financially I do not know. 

[Lawful Metal]

Shinsuke should never wrestle on Smackdown.  And never talk. And he should never lose.  But he should be on every Smackdown PPV, and he should be champion.  Turn him heel, win the championship, "take it to Japan," and force him to defend every 30 days.  And then he can knee everyone into oblivion until someone (AJ) figures it out.  At Wrestlemania.

[Michael Sweetser]

I've actually talked to a number of wrestling fans and workers living in India, both native and non, and the general gist is that the Indian fans truly only care about "their own" natives - they want to cheer Indians from India, not necessarily those from other countries that happen to be of Indian descent.  As such, they love Khali, but don't really care much about Jinder since he's actually Canadian.

For that reason alone, I think this is a completely misguided idea, and they're crazy if they think the country's suddenly going to give a shit about WWE - even if they DID get behind Jinder, they would be getting behind ONLY Jinder, and the instant they took the title off him, they'd be done.

[Niners Fan in CT]

I agree with that.  Nakamura shouldn't be having TV matches with Dolph Ziggler and Baron Corbin.  He should be defending the title against John Cena, Kevin Owens, AJ Styles.  

My only question with what you added @Michael Sweetser to the India discussion is why are media outlets in India covering this?  I've only seen the WWE footage. I assume that real media outlets and newspapers are talking about this but why? Would they normally be covering WWE anyway? Is WWE asking them to cover it? I ask because I would assume that media would want to cover things that people care about.  

[Michael Sweetser]

30 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I agree with that.  Nakamura shouldn't be having TV matches with Dolph Ziggler and Baron Corbin.  He should be defending the title against John Cena, Kevin Owens, AJ Styles.  

My only question with what you added @Michael Sweetser to the India discussion is why are media outlets in India covering this?  I've only seen the WWE footage. I assume that real media outlets and newspapers are talking about this but why? Would they normally be covering WWE anyway? Is WWE asking them to cover it? I ask because I would assume that media would want to cover things that people care about.  

Well, I'd be surprised if there was no coverage.  WWE also has a habit of cherrypicking, so I wouldn't be surprised at them finding some.

I realize this reads as I'm trying to discredit the idea, and I am a little bit, but I'm going by what others that are actually over there, involved in the biz are telling me.  And it's disproportionate to what WWE thinks is actually happening, or what the potential for it actually appears to be.

[JCM]

2 hours ago, Craig H said:

In those situations with a brand split, yes, Cena put them over clean, but they also just buried Corbin. Do you honestly think the same happens without a brand split? Don't be obtuse. Orton put over Bray? Fucking really? That is really laughable. Also, let's not start sucking each other's dicks just yet. There's nothing indicating Lesnar is going to put over Strowman. 

Again though, you're using examples of what the reality is with a brand split to show that things would be different if the brands were combined. That's just dumb. Combined brands leads to different booking. Brands being split gives them added flexibility to do something different.

Corbin buried himself by running his mouth on Twitter and being terrible. Without a brand split he would've never been so overpushed. The thing I responded to was that nobody but Orton, Cena, Brock, or Roman would be champ without the brand split which I disagree with. If Lesnar is going to be fighting Jon Jones he'll drop the belt. Even if he doesn't I would think WWE wants to have their world champ on tv every week during football season.

Brand split gives flexibility, and it also gives shallow women's and tag division on each show with every match up ran into the ground. So far the best thing to come from the brand split was Heath Slater's push on SDL.

[Victator]

I think each brand should act like it is the only world title. If you would not put a belt on someone pre brand split, don't do it when there is a brand split. 

I think there is a decent chance they would have put the title on AJ Styles without a split. He had beaten Cena more than once and had headlined shows with Reigns. The others probably would not have gotten a chance and that would have been for the best. 

[Just Dave]

Poop.

[mattdangerously]

8 hours ago, Beech27 said:

(I also think the problem with Shinsuke is less that he's lazy and more that the crowd just isn't interested in seeing him do the standard babyface routine of working from underneath and selling for 70% of a match.)

I've been saying this for a couple of months now.  He's either been told he needs to sell more, or he thinks that selling for 75% of the match and then getting all his shit in is the WWE babyface style (which it kind of is).  He's working hard, just not necessarily working smart.  

It wasn't his fault the Jinder match sucked--he was given 11 minutes to try and get something out of a guy who would get lost in the shuffle in the WCW Thunder midcard.  He's not a miracle worker.

[TheVileOne]

Jinder Mahal is a pure heel, and the act is clearly working.  No reason to take title off of him now.  Vince McMahon and the brass clearly don't understand how to properly book Shinsuke Nakamura though.

As for Baron Corbin, not sure how he recovers from this burial.  Or Rusev for that matter.  

[Victator]

30 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

Jinder Mahal is a pure heel, and the act is clearly working.

He has gotten worse every match since he has become champion. He had the worst match I have ever seen Luke Harper have and the Nakamura match was worse. He botched his own finisher. 

From what I have seen he has only inspired apathy from the fans. I don't think he is going to draw in India and that is why WWE has paired him with Khalli. 

[Niners Fan in CT]

I don't think Jinder has been bad. He's been working a smart methodical pace, he's not trying to do shit he can't do. He's far from the worst wrestler to be given a push. AJ Styles would have gotten a good match out of him at SummerSlam, I'm confident in saying that. A couple of the Orton matches were solid.

[cwoy2j]

3 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I don't think Jinder has been bad. He's been working a smart methodical pace, he's not trying to do shit he can't do. He's far from the worst wrestler to be given a push. AJ Styles would have gotten a good match out of him at SummerSlam, I'm confident in saying that. A couple of the Orton matches were solid.

Possibly being able to be dragged to a good match by arguably the best wrestler in the world and having solid matches with Randy Orton shouldn't be the criteria for getting the type of push he's getting.

[Michael Sweetser]

AJ Styles is pretty much in Ric Flair "carry a broomstick to ***3/4" at this point, and Orton can sleepwalk to decent stuff, so yeah, not the best comparison.

Jinder does pretty much blow the idea out of the water that WWE can't throw the big push at anyone at any time if they've got enough of a bug up their butt about it.  Even JBL going from APA member to WWE Champion wasn't this sudden.

[MORELOCK]

18 hours ago, Lawful Metal said:

Shinsuke should never wrestle on Smackdown.  And never talk. And he should never lose.  But he should be on every Smackdown PPV, and he should be champion.  Turn him heel, win the championship, "take it to Japan," and force him to defend every 30 days.  And then he can knee everyone into oblivion until someone (AJ) figures it out.  At Wrestlemania.

It's unrealistic and uninteresting for you to expect or want anyone to "never lose."

[Nice Guy Eddie]

6 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I don't think Jinder has been bad. He's been working a smart methodical pace, he's not trying to do shit he can't do. He's far from the worst wrestler to be given a push. AJ Styles would have gotten a good match out of him at SummerSlam, I'm confident in saying that. A couple of the Orton matches were solid.

Like his own finisher?

[FluffSnackwell]

Pure heel is nothing more than code for a guy that sucks so bad he has a snowball's chance in hell of getting cheered as a cool heel.

[MoeCristyV.1.6]

Or do something interesting in the ring.

And he was given an idiot prove finisher. He fucked it up several times now.

[Michael Sweetser]

32 minutes ago, FluffSnackwell said:

Pure heel is nothing more than code for a guy that sucks so bad he has a snowball's chance in hell of getting cheered as a cool heel.

Fuck "cool heels".  

[FluffSnackwell]

Well, I'd go with fuck the crowds who want to get themselves over. Without the fuckhead unwashed masses who insist on cheering even bona fide heels, there wouldn't be so many cool heels.  

[Cristobal]

What a ridiculous argument.

Masturbatory self-referential chants, or cheering for a beach ball is one thing.

But cheering for people you like regardless of whether you're "supposed to" cheer for them or not has nothing the fuck whatsoever to do with "getting themselves over".

[MORELOCK]

The existence of "cool heels" is entirely on Creative - you have to make the crowd want to support the faces over the heels. If you give the faces terrible material like Roman in general or Sasha on Monday night, they're going to revolt.