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Raw is THAT PROMO - 7/10/2017


Dolfan in NYC

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55 minutes ago, Cristobal said:

What is Roman supposed to be? Is he supposed to be the biggest badass on the roster (i.e. top babyface)? Is he supposed to be a jaded badass who stopped pretending to care what the fans thought of him? Is he the dude who's too cool for everyone, especially the fans? Leaving aside the mini-Cena split in his reactions, I don't know what it is I'm meant to do when Roman comes out. On some level it's at least acknowledged that Roman isn't gonna get the universal cheers they want him to, but I don't know where that leaves him, and I'm not convinced WWE do either.

He's not a good guy, he's not a bad guy....He's THE Guy!

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16 hours ago, kiguchi said:

It's hard to believe that there are some on this board, one of the most intelligent places on the wrestling webs, who still hate Reigns.

Reigns is very good in ring, but his persona is very hateable. I think everything about him is more suited to being a heel.

 

11 hours ago, Marty Sugar said:

people will be saying they've ALWAYS thought Roman was a great worker.

I hated Cena until 06 around the time of the ECW feud. His first match with Sabu I started warming up to him, then the Umaga feud sealed the deal. 

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1 minute ago, Victator said:

I hated Cena until 06 around the time of the ECW feud. His first match with Sabu I started warming up to him, then the Umaga feud sealed the deal. 

Yes, I remember the arguments here when the mood started to change for a lot of people: you still had some saying, "Cena only looked good because Umaga carried him," and others were like, "fuck that, he's having good matches with Great Khali, too."

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14 hours ago, MORELOCK said:

I don't think I've seen anyone complain about Reigns's in-ring work on this board in years.

His booking, however, is total garbage and only the Burgundys of the world would defend it.

I've said several times that his past booking wasn't good and they needed to be more cohesive with him, but keep up your narrative. I even said in a post in this thread that they're missing a good chance to expand another dimension to him.  But when someone doesn't call the guy a fuck sandwich like it'll help me achieve orgasm, I suppose it doesn't resonate.

I could drink the piss and agree with you 100%. I guess you'd respect me that way, yes?  Instead of giving my POV and maybe have a civil discussion about it without resorting to insulting someone else who sees it differently from me.

And there are still whiffs of "Roman can't work" in corners around here.

That he gets shit on for bad booking and characterization when hardly anyone's is good is a joke.  Some still want to say that he wins all the time, but his 2017 PPV record is 2-5. For all the talk about not knowing what Roman Reigns is supposed to represent, a lot of his detractors have no idea what they want him to be, either.

 

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18 minutes ago, Marty Sugar said:

Yes, I remember the arguments here when the mood started to change for a lot of people: you still had some saying, "Cena only looked good because Umaga carried him," and others were like, "fuck that, he's having good matches with Great Khali, too."

And keep in mind a lot of those people had been shitting on Umaga for not being Samoa Joe.

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41 minutes ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

I've said several times that his past booking wasn't good and they needed to be more cohesive with him, but keep up your narrative. I even said in a post in this thread that they're missing a good chance to expand another dimension to him.  But when someone doesn't call the guy a shit sandwich like it'll help me achieve orgasm, I suppose it doesn't resonate.

I could drink the piss and agree with you 100%. I guess you'd respect me that way, yes?  Instead of giving my POV and maybe have a civil discussion about it without resorting to insulting someone else who sees it differently from me.

And there are still whiffs of "Roman can't work" in corners around here.

That he gets shit on for bad booking and characterization when hardly anyone's is good is a joke.  Some still want to say that he wins all the time, but his 2017 PPV record is 2-5. For all the talk about not knowing what Roman Reigns is supposed to represent, a lot of his detractors have no idea what they want him to be, either.

I am sorry for insulting you and being disrespectful. You're the one in the RAW thread every week bright-siding when everyone else here is fed up with the way Roman is booked, so you're the one I thought of - but I certainly could have been more delicate about it.

I don't know where you're seeing the Roman can't work stuff on this board. I heartily invite anyone who doesn't think Roman can go in the ring to come and tell us why. His ringwork has never really been the issue.

To suggest that hardly anyone's booking and characterization is good is untrue. SmackDown was on a fantastic hot streak top to bottom from the brand split until the shake-up. Joe and Brock just had a mini-feud that everyone has been raving about. Good work and characterization can exist in the current WWE environment, but it's not happening for Roman. Whether or not he "wins all the time" isn't the issue - the issue is that he is still presented as "The Guy" when the crowds have emphatically rejected him in that role. People can hold victories over Roman and it won't be helpful at all because Roman is still positioned as being better and more important than everyone else. Just look at the way they've cut Finn Balor off at the knees in favor of the Roman push.

As far as what the detractors want him to be, it's pretty universally agreed upon that he desperately needs an actual heel run and WWE refuses to give us one. That's bad booking.

 

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If I praised RAW, it was because I actually thought it was good.  If I thought something stunk, I said so.  There were some BAD shows for RAW in the spring, but I usually found a few things I liked.  It wasn't praise for Reigns so much as not feeling the need to overly-criticize something I spent three hours watching.  If I don't enjoy it, I turn off the computer and call it a night.  I'm not into hate-watching and then complaining online.

If you who don't like Roman hate his booking, imagine appreciating him and seeing that for a long time, they got him all wrong and feel bad for the guy doing his best to sell the garbage he was being given.

Just a thought the next time any of you want to shit on Roman fans.

Finn wasn't depushed for Roman.  Finn got hurt at the worst possible time.  Balor was clearly going to get a long run as the top champion on RAW post-SummerSlam 2016.  But he got injured just as Goldberg returned and Lesnar apparently expressed interest in working with him again, knowing that it would end with him getting that ugly red belt.  If anything, Roman winning the Universal title likely opens the door for Finn to win it back. Because he ain't pulling it off Brock.

Sure, Brock and Joe are doing great. But Brock pretty much carries Vince's balls in his Jimmy John's lunch bag and he likes working with Joe.  So they're good, especially since I'd wager Heyman is taking care of their creative needs.  Braun is in solid shape, but what happens when they pull him away from Reigns?  Because working with Roman has helped him on several levels.  What becomes of him when he has to work with someone who doesn't sell as well or has that level of heat?  It'll be interesting to see.

Most of the roster is woefully written for.  Ambrose, Rollins, Wyatt, Corbin, the women, RAW's tag division--what are they supposed to represent?  I don't have a clue.  They're not even doing much with Styles and KO.  Bless Rusev and whatever he did to get booked so far into the ground. Even with RAW being quite good as of late, most of the characters are merely shells with little motivation true to who they are on-screen.

 SmackDown was on fire for a few months, but while RAW has righted their ship post Superstar Shakeup, SDL is still struggling.  Probably doesn't help when they have their main event and secondary title scenes reversed where RAW has their main event exactly right with the correct four guys. And constantly booking the women in multi-person matches while Naomi got stuck with babysitting Lana three times too many.

A heel turn for Roman at this point probably does little in terms of his presentation.  I've read too many detractors say they want him heel so they can like him.  Um, that's not the point of being a heel, folks.  Now, if they mean something deeper than that, fine.  I'd be interested in reading it.  But I haven't seen that expressed yet.

I don't think it's a finished product by any means, but this version of Reigns is a lot closer to what he needs to be.  He works heel on smaller guys and face with guys the same size or bigger than him. Some cheer him, and that's cool. If you're booing him?  Why should he care?  He's on TV every week.  He's getting rich.  And he's already got a sweet resume that will only get better as he continues with his career.  He's cocky as hell, but he can back that attitude up most of the time.  He's basically good, but not trying to be a happy-go-lucky babyface.  We joke about the The Guy promo, but it's accurate. His being good or bad?  It matters little to Reigns.  He just wants to win and claim everything as his own.  Like I said, it needs refining.  But it feels like he's getting to flex a bit more and do things that come naturally to him.  Obviously, I'm a fan and don't claim to be objective.  I'm just giving my take.

 

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1 hour ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

 

A heel turn for Roman at this point probably does little in terms of his presentation.  I've read too many detractors say they want him heel so they can like him.  Um, that's not the point of being a heel, folks.  Now, if they mean something deeper than that, fine.  I'd be interested in reading it.  But I haven't seen that expressed yet.

 

I won't speak for anyone else, but for me when I say "like" him as a heel, it means like his character. I think many people would say they "like" the Miz, but I don't hear him getting many cheers. Roman suffers from a few factors, one being his character is portrayed terribly not unlike everyone else who comes off as scripted, plastic robots that are difficult to relate to. The other is he ends up representing the entirety of WWE (not unlike Cena), and thus easy to boo. And people can say that if they don't like it, why even go? But these are really the WWE's fans. This is what its come down to. 

It's also hard for Roman getting compared to Joe, a guy who's been wrestling around the world in front of every type of crowd for a long, long time. That's not a fair fight. 

The shit is what it is at this point. WWE blew their ultimate opportunity when everybody was universally booing Roman because he was the "hand picked" company guy, then they decided to run a summer long angle where they would have a heel that was the HHH "hand picked" guy on top. And they placed Seth Rollins in that position. Watch that ship sail away never to return.

My issue is I don't want to dislike the top babyface and they don't really make it easy to like the guy. 

 

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4 hours ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

Braun is in solid shape, but what happens when they pull him away from Reigns?  Because working with Roman has helped him on several levels.  What becomes of him when he has to work with someone who doesn't sell as well or has that level of heat?  It'll be interesting to see.

Braun was over before Reigns and will be over after. Better question is what happens to Reigns. Without Braun he goes from hate to apathy. 

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1 hour ago, Victator said:

Braun was over before Reigns and will be over after. Better question is what happens to Reigns. Without Braun he goes from hate to apathy. 

Roman continues on the same trajectory, regardless on his opponent.  You are vastly underestimating the emotions surrounding him.  The stuff said here is just the tip of the iceberg.  There are people out here would probably attack the guy if they could.  It's disturbing, but something about Reigns sets them off and it can't just be about not liking him as a wrestler. That shit is 100% real and expressed every day on many wrestling sites.

Braun was over to a degree before Roman, but there's no way he gets to where he is without that rivalry.

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10 hours ago, Victator said:

Lot of people on Twitter still say Reigns is bad in the ring. 

I remember someone on here saying they were in a facebook group where people were claiming Braun carried Roman in those matches. Braun Strowman, who likely has had about 100 total singles matches, was carrying a guy who has been wrestling for 7 years.

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7 hours ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

Braun was over to a degree before Roman, but there's no way he gets to where he is without that rivalry.

I agree with you, but consider this: how much more over would Braun be if he had steamrolled Roman and never dropped a fall to him? Braun is an "unstoppable monster" but because the booking revolves entirely around protecting Reigns from looking like anything less than The Best, he's been stopped more than once. Do you not see how fans might be frustrated at how the company insists on burning everything down around Roman at the expense of good storylines?

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6 hours ago, MORELOCK said:

I agree with you, but consider this: how much more over would Braun be if he had steamrolled Roman and never dropped a fall to him? Braun is an "unstoppable monster" but because the booking revolves entirely around protecting Reigns from looking like anything less than The Best, he's been stopped more than once. Do you not see how fans might be frustrated at how the company insists on burning everything down around Roman at the expense of good storylines?

Only an unreasonably close minded Roman Reigns hater will consider that. Jeez. 

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