JULY 2017 WRESTLING DISCUSSION

[(BP)]

When I use to post at PWO I remember suggesting the notion that Flair didn't have too much to offer to developmental workers because he was sort of an idiot savant who couldn't articulate a lot of what he did or why he did it. A lot of people who've probably seen more Flair than I've seen wrestling matches altogether disagreed. I don't know. I haven't listened to a ton of his shoots and pods, but I've never heard him really get into specifics of psychology or mechanics. 

[MonteCarl]

I've heard it said that Bobby Eaton was considered as a possible trainer because he's just so good in the ring, but he always said he would not be a good trainer because he doesn't know why he does what he does when he does it. He just does it.

[PetrolCB]

Sounds about right. It's like how musicians are. You could ask them to teach you how to do something, but you'd get the same response. "I don't really know, I just do it." 

[Captain Kronos]

In the classical/opera world, they do Master Classes. The big stars will come in and work with students for a few hours or a few days. I have watched some on youtube. 

Some of them, like fiddler Itzhak Perlman and mezzo-soprano Joyce DiDonato, are fantastic. They really break it down for the kids. Some are less helpful, even when the star means well, like soprano Renee Fleming. It isn't that big stars don't have anything to offer students/trainees. It's that as we're saying, they don't always have the ability to translate what they do. 

[Wyld Samurai]

I would personally love to sit in on a Bobby Eaton promo class.

[PetrolCB]

Saw this on the F4W board, figured I'd cross it here... 

Did he ever use this version at all? I have no recollection of it and this is the first I've heard it. It's not bad. I still prefer the Motörhead version though. 

[Phantom Lord]

The only time I remember him using a different version of "The Game" was at Wrestlemania 18 when Drowning Pool played him to the ring with their version of the song. Slightly same music as the Motorhead version with different lyrics. I think they might have used it a couple of times just to promote whatever WWF theme cd was out at the time, but after that it right back to the Motorhead version.

[PetrolCB]

I don't even remember that Drowning Pool version at all. 

[Victator]

So I have a TNA question. 

Have they ever established that Joseph Park is a persona created by mentally ill Abyss?

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

I want to see Enzo mentored by DDP - guy making a late run as a singles guy after being a tag/manager/second all his life. Give Enzo the Diamond Cutter, the Diamond Dolls, some sort of stipulation match where Cass fights some other guy where the loser becomes his Diamond Stud. 

Enzo turns on DDP, reunites with Cass. 

Sawft Hi Five

[AxB]

3 hours ago, Victator said:

So I have a TNA question. 

Have they ever established that Joseph Park is a persona created by mentally ill Abyss?

Yes, Daniels and Kaz exposed Park, Park and Park as being a fake law firm, and he admitted that he had no brother and it was a mental retreat for him. And in the Borash/ Park vs Steiner / Matthews PPV match, James Mitchell got him to transform by giving him the Abyss mask (in the initial run, he'd go berserk and start killing guys if he saw blood).

[Victator]

11 minutes ago, AxB said:

Yes, Daniels and Kaz exposed Park, Park and Park as being a fake law firm, and he admitted that he had no brother and it was a mental retreat for him. And in the Borash/ Park vs Steiner / Matthews PPV match, James Mitchell got him to transform by giving him the Abyss mask (in the initial run, he'd go berserk and start killing guys if he saw blood).

Thank you, I don't watch much TNA. So I only saw bits and pieces. 

[Zakk_Sabbath]

That HHH theme is so incredibly dated. Motorhead is timeless. The right call was made. It doesn't sound like Chris Warren to me. I feel like it might be whoever did Jericho's theme (not Anthony Martini)

[Technico Support]

14 hours ago, RIPPA said:

The general train of thought is the super elite athletes (Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, etc...) make terrible coaches because they can't understand why average Joes can't do the things that came naturally to them 

 

15 hours ago, Kronos said:

I have always believed that the best coaches and managers in other sports are the skilled but mid-level guys. They know what it takes to make it more maybe than the guys for whom it came a bit more naturally. 

Maybe it's the same in rasslin. Albert or Dean Malenko or Fit Finlay can teach better than The Rock or Flair can?

It's why lifelong jobber Johnny Rodz trained more guys than Ric Flair 

[Zakk_Sabbath]

14 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

 

It's why lifelong jobber Johnny Rodz trained more guys than Ric Flair 

Right, I mean who could've predicted that?

[Matt D]

12 hours ago, (BP) said:

When I use to post at PWO I remember suggesting the notion that Flair didn't have too much to offer to developmental workers because he was sort of an idiot savant who couldn't articulate a lot of what he did or why he did it. A lot of people who've probably seen more Flair than I've seen wrestling matches altogether disagreed. I don't know. I haven't listened to a ton of his shoots and pods, but I've never heard him really get into specifics of psychology or mechanics. 

Listening to his shoots is a hugely depressing and disheartening activity. I wouldn't suggest it to anyone. It's almost like a skeleton key to dismantling aspects of his work. For me, it was kind of like a magic eye. Once I saw it, I couldn't unsee it. It gives credence to a lot of the traditional criticism of him that people like Bret have had. There's just the sense that he really doesn't think or care about any of this, that he does his spots every night, the same way with the same meaning because when he was younger, he wanted to see Ray Stevens or whoever do his spots and would be disappointed if he didn't, that the things he values about wrestlers "Stevens was great because he could party all night and go the next morning!" or "Brody was great because he could go an hour with me and not blow up no matter what I tried!" are wildly different from what we value. 

Go back and listen to Lex Luger on his podcast. It's pretty blatantly obvious that Luger, who is someone that has been assaulted over the years, especially relative to Flair, understands what worked about Flair's wrestling far better than Flair does. 

(All this said, there are obviously many, many things Flair does not only well but better than almost anyone ever. I'm not saying he's not both a great wrestler and one of the greatest. That he manages that while still being wholly two-dimensional and oblivious is a testament to the sheer level of exceptionalism of what he does do well) 

[OSJ]

16 hours ago, RIPPA said:

Except Fit Finley is a better wrestler than Flair or Rock

For that matter so is Dean Malenko.

[Zakk_Sabbath]

1 minute ago, OSJ said:

For that matter so is Dean Malenko.

I was in the middle of replying to Matt's great post above yours kind of contrasting Flair's spots with Bret's "five moves" comeback when I saw your reply pop up, and it made me think, man do I wish Bret and Malenko crossed paths more in WCW. I remember they had a Nitro match, but I haven't seen it since it aired some time in 98 or 99, and I don't think it was particularly notable. 

[Technico Support]

I'm not going to get into politics, but this is pretty good

Just needs a Bobby Heenan drop, "but whose side is he on?!"

[Ryan]

He of course followed the two women that already preceded him in voting No by crossing the aisle, but whatever.

[BurningBeard]

1 hour ago, Matt D said:

Listening to his shoots is a hugely depressing and disheartening activity. I wouldn't suggest it to anyone. It's almost like a skeleton key to dismantling aspects of his work. For me, it was kind of like a magic eye. Once I saw it, I couldn't unsee it. It gives credence to a lot of the traditional criticism of him that people like Bret have had. There's just the sense that he really doesn't think or care about any of this, that he does his spots every night, the same way with the same meaning because when he was younger, he wanted to see Ray Stevens or whoever do his spots and would be disappointed if he didn't, that the things he values about wrestlers "Stevens was great because he could party all night and go the next morning!" or "Brody was great because he could go an hour with me and not blow up no matter what I tried!" are wildly different from what we value. 

Go back and listen to Lex Luger on his podcast. It's pretty blatantly obvious that Luger, who is someone that has been assaulted over the years, especially relative to Flair, understands what worked about Flair's wrestling far better than Flair does. 

(All this said, there are obviously many, many things Flair does not only well but better than almost anyone ever. I'm not saying he's not both a great wrestler and one of the greatest. That he manages that while still being wholly two-dimensional and oblivious is a testament to the sheer level of exceptionalism of what he does do well) 

I love Flair, he entertains the hell out of me for the reasons stated above, but I've always stated that he wasn't cut out for the TV/internet era. If you're making towns and putting on a liveshow his shtick is faultless, when you sit and watch five Flair matches in a row on the Network you can be forgiven for wondering what the big deal is

[OSJ]

1 hour ago, Matt D said:

Listening to his shoots is a hugely depressing and disheartening activity. I wouldn't suggest it to anyone. It's almost like a skeleton key to dismantling aspects of his work. For me, it was kind of like a magic eye. Once I saw it, I couldn't unsee it. It gives credence to a lot of the traditional criticism of him that people like Bret have had. There's just the sense that he really doesn't think or care about any of this, that he does his spots every night, the same way with the same meaning because when he was younger, he wanted to see Ray Stevens or whoever do his spots and would be disappointed if he didn't, that the things he values about wrestlers "Stevens was great because he could party all night and go the next morning!" or "Brody was great because he could go an hour with me and not blow up no matter what I tried!" are wildly different from what we value. 

Go back and listen to Lex Luger on his podcast. It's pretty blatantly obvious that Luger, who is someone that has been assaulted over the years, especially relative to Flair, understands what worked about Flair's wrestling far better than Flair does. 

(All this said, there are obviously many, many things Flair does not only well but better than almost anyone ever. I'm not saying he's not both a great wrestler and one of the greatest. That he manages that while still being wholly two-dimensional and oblivious is a testament to the sheer level of exceptionalism of what he does do well) 

This is all part and parcel of the concept that the true greats tend to make inferior teachers because of either a natural ability not shared by most people or a mind-set not shared by most people. Look at the two greatest hitters that baseball has ever seen, Rogers Hornsby and Ted Williams, both had eyesight that can only be described as super-human, Williams could see the rotation of a fastball coming at him at 90 mph, Hornsby claimed to be able to see which way the seams were turning on a pitched ball. I don't think either man was lying, I just think that they were gifted with an extraordinary ability, and as Enzo is fond of saying, "You can't teach that." While Hornsby had some success as a manager, he was a terrible teacher of hitting because everything he knew about it was predicated on being able to see better than anyone else. Charley Lau and Walt Hriniak on the other hand, were great hitting instructors because they were pretty much average players that had to work their asses off to stay in the Show. 

In wrestling you have guys with tremendous natural ability like Bobby Eaton who aren't really able to articulate why they do a particular thing at a particular time, they just know it's the right thing to do. Then you have guys like Flair, who purely by accident does all the right things for the wring reasons and gets over as a result. The crowd doesn't know what he values is vastly different from what they do, they just see the result, which happens to be the same thing. Flair is getting all his spots in as a sequence because he thinks it important to do so, the crowd thinks he's crafting a great story in the ring, even though that's the furthest thing from his mind. Flair's never going to be able to teach anyone how to tell a compelling story in the ring because he really doesn't know how, he does it, but it's by accident rather then design. A guy like Albert, who has to work his ass off to avoid being future endeavored is going to be a lot more aware of how to work a match effectively, just as the baseball player who has to scrap to stay in the Majors is going to be a much more effective student/teacher of the game than a guy like Ken Griffey jr, who was a complete natural. 

[JohnnyJ]

Yes and no. His work can feel at times like a greatest hits album but the promos still hold up. What I love so much about his promos is he spends just as much time building himself up as he does his opponent. Sometimes he just brags about the strength of the nwa roster. Love that.

All this talk of trainers, and nobody mentions that Stan Lane is the only wrestler trained by the Nature Boy,

 

[Matt D]

14 minutes ago, CreativeControl said:

I love Flair, he entertains the hell out of me for the reasons stated above, but I've always stated that he wasn't cut out for the TV/internet era. If you're making towns and putting on a liveshow his shtick is faultless, when you sit and watch five Flair matches in a row on the Network you can be forgiven for wondering what the big deal is

Let me toss up a corollary to this actually. Flair's act worked because you weren't going to see him every week. If he comes in and puts over (even in defeat) Bart Sawyer in Portland or Koko Ware in Memphis or has a big match with Wahoo in Houston, you're probably not going to see him again for months.  That said, Nick Bockwinkel did the same shit in astoundingly different ways, just as effectively, all tempered to his opponent and is a hundred times the wrestler Flair was for that reason.

The big tragedy of Ric Flair is this: We don't have a lot of pre-travelling champion Flair on a week to week basis in front of the SAME audience. We have that with Buddy Rose or Gino Hernandez or Jerry Lawler. I want to see Flair in Greensboro week after week in 1980. I want to see how he handles wrestling in front of the same audience and if he really DOES do the same thing week after week or if he switches it up like the others do. 

I honestly have no idea because we tend to just have 3-4 minute clips of these scattered matches.

[BurningBeard]

Ha, I was supposed to ask that question about Stan Lane in my original reply! Was it a load of rubbish to give him a bit of shine or did Flair train him? I can't exactly image Flair have the time or inclination to full on train someone

EDIT - I just had to look up corollary so well played.

And yes, Bockwinkle is definitely a hundred times the wrestler Flair was. I'd heard the name Nick Bockwinkle due to being into my wrestling history but had never ever even had the chance to see him wrestle until Youtube burst on the scene. As more and more of his matches became available and it was like a revelation. He is legit one of the most intricate wrestlers I've ever watched, so invested in the minutae of a match. And unlike a lot of other formulaeic territory wrestlers I don't think the amount of footage overexposed him because no one match was ever the same with him. Bockwinkle is the wrestling equivalent to water - he's fluid and you can put him in any in-ring situation and he'll adapt.

You know how the commentators always tried to get HHH over as a ring general? Bock is the epitome of that saying to me. If he'd had a better quality of opponent/had decided to run with the NWA he'd probably be everyone's #1 wrestler