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JULY 2017 WRESTLING DISCUSSION


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Melterz also said that he was told that Aries didn't ask for his release - the WWE just wanted him gone. He wasn't exactly upset by it obviously

They aren't holding him to his contract. He basically has a 90 non-compete. He can still work but he just needs to get the dates approved.

Dave did bring up which was one of the things that I mentioned and that Aries didn't like the merch/royalties situation (specifically citing not being on the Mania DVD)

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He's still getting paid till October though. So, yeah, the merch thing sucks, but he's still getting checks, while being allowed to do certain, approved, dates. 

I understand the royalty thing for Mania. But, are ppvs honestly taking in money on DVD sales? It's all on WWEN. Except for docs, what's really selling, show-wise?

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The Mania DVD is one of their biggest sellers (if not the biggest seller) every year so missing out on that paycheck for someone on that level is going to hurt.

It's not like Aries was making Cena level money

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Aries is right to be mad about the DVD situation. 

Meltzer said when they cut house show royalties a few years back, that the previous generation would have quit on the spot. Now guys just take what they are given and keep quiet. 

 

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Here's an interesting musing of the day: Vince Sr. relocating the WWWF out of Washington DC was actually a newsworthy event, which surprises me. What is also surprising is the extent to which the Globe mentions Vince Sr.'s usage of television and celebrates to expand wrestling to new audiences. The article also acknowledges that pro wrestling is predetermined. Vince Sr. blamed the declining neighborhood where his DC venue was located as the primary reason that he left the cty. 

Vince Sr. getting credit for using celebrities and television to spread the WWWF is interesting, especially since WWE's current line is that Vince Jr. took wrestling out of smoke filled bingo halls and into the big time. 

It's behind a paywall so I can't share but if you want to find it, it's in the October 10, 1971 edition of the Boston Globe. 

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Promoters were using celebrities back in the days of Jack Dempsey. Bill Watts used Muhammad Ali at the Superdome. 

You have to hold a gun to someones head to get WWE to acknowledge Starrcade. Gerry Brisco once referred to Starrcade as a 1983 Thanksgiving show that didn't draw. 

They did acknowledge it on the Starrcade and WCW dvds and the only time WWE acknowledged Vince holding up the cable companies in 87.

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47 minutes ago, Victator said:

Aries is right to be mad about the DVD situation. 

Meltzer said when they cut house show royalties a few years back, that the previous generation would have quit on the spot. Now guys just take what they are given and keep quiet. 

This generation of wrestlers lacks leverage.  20 years ago, there were viable #2 and 3 companies.  Today, your alternatives are.... TNA/GFW and ROH, neither of which is in a position to absorb a lot of new talent or take on big contracts.  You apparently can make good money on the indys if you work steadily and your asking price is high enough - Cody and maybe Ryback are the models for that - but those are two big ifs.  I imagine making anything close to $100K on the indys is a dicey proposition even for an uppercard guy.  You can maybe do it if your asking price is high enough and you're a big enough name to work a couple times a month - a Hardy, for example - but, then again, you might miss that target by a bunch.  There's a lot of uncertainty.  And most of these guys are probably going to make more in the WWE regardless.

What's the most viable alternative these days?  NJPW, with maybe some indy dates?  That sounds like it could work, but it involves a lot of travel and scratching to make the living.  And where do you go from there?  There's a limit to how many gaijin New Japan is going to want to sign.  

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Wrestling needs a union so badly. WWE violates virtually every differentiation the IRS makes between Independent Contractor and Employee and gets off unscathed. Somehow, I doubt the current administration would make any efforts to curtail that in much of any business, but especially not one with the personal connections. 

My buddy and I were discussing wrestling unionization recently through the lens of Lucha Underground not allowing wrestlers to appear on televised shows elsewhere, even if said wrestler works a different gimmick outside of LU. I think of it like if AMC barred Bryan Cranston from acting in other roles while on Breaking Bad. That analogy brought up a thought: If forming a wrestling union isn't feasible, why don't wrestlers join SAG? 

Vince himself was the first to come out and essentially declare the industry a TV show. Wouldn't the wrestlers then qualify for SAG membership and protections? 

 

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26 minutes ago, Horton Hears a Wooo!!! said:

This generation of wrestlers lacks leverage.  20 years ago, there were viable #2 and 3 companies.  Today, your alternatives are.... TNA/GFW and ROH, neither of which is in a position to absorb a lot of new talent or take on big contracts.  You apparently can make good money on the indys if you work steadily and your asking price is high enough - Cody and maybe Ryback are the models for that - but those are two big ifs.  I imagine making anything close to $100K on the indys is a dicey proposition even for an uppercard guy.  You can maybe do it if your asking price is high enough and you're a big enough name to work a couple times a month - a Hardy, for example - but, then again, you might miss that target by a bunch.  There's a lot of uncertainty.  And most of these guys are probably going to make more in the WWE regardless.

What's the most viable alternative these days?  NJPW, with maybe some indy dates?  That sounds like it could work, but it involves a lot of travel and scratching to make the living.  And where do you go from there?  There's a limit to how many gaijin New Japan is going to want to sign.  

Seems like they are getting treated shit anyway. But maybe it is like when Road Dogg quit in 95 went to Memphis, paid as much as 95 Memphis could pay and was desperate to go back. 

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3 hours ago, The Nature Boy said:

Vince Sr. getting credit for using celebrities and television to spread the WWWF is interesting, especially since WWE's current line is that Vince Jr. took wrestling out of smoke filled bingo halls and into the big time. 

 

Further interesting to this point is that, per Bill Apter's book, Andy Kaufman kept showing up at WWF shows and talking to Vince Sr. and trying to talk him into doing something with him.  Vince Sr. came up to Apter and asked him to keep Kaufman away from him and the wrestlers because he was distracting them and how he didn't trust "showbiz types".  When Apter went home for the night, Kaufman asked if he could come along and talk about wrestling with him and kept asking "I don't understand why Vince Sr. doesn't want to do something with me" and Apter told him "Vince Sr. isn't big on celebrities" then suggested he call Jerry Lawler and see if he wanted to do something and so Apter was the go-between for Kaufman and Lawler.  So Vince Sr. gets credit for using celebrities, but is also discussed as not being partial to celebrities.

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3 hours ago, Horton Hears a Wooo!!! said:

What's the most viable alternative these days?  NJPW, with maybe some indy dates?  That sounds like it could work, but it involves a lot of travel and scratching to make the living.  And where do you go from there?  There's a limit to how many gaijin New Japan is going to want to sign.  

If anything, this is the exact time they'll want to sign more. Especially with the so-called west coast office and territory coming into play. They'll need some names if they want it to do better than the Inoki Dojo did. Also keep in mind that very few of the gaijin are full-time.

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1 hour ago, caley said:

Further interesting to this point is that, per Bill Apter's book, Andy Kaufman kept showing up at WWF shows and talking to Vince Sr. and trying to talk him into doing something with him.  Vince Sr. came up to Apter and asked him to keep Kaufman away from him and the wrestlers because he was distracting them and how he didn't trust "showbiz types".  When Apter went home for the night, Kaufman asked if he could come along and talk about wrestling with him and kept asking "I don't understand why Vince Sr. doesn't want to do something with me" and Apter told him "Vince Sr. isn't big on celebrities" then suggested he call Jerry Lawler and see if he wanted to do something and so Apter was the go-between for Kaufman and Lawler.  So Vince Sr. gets credit for using celebrities, but is also discussed as not being partial to celebrities.

 I wonder if Vince Sr. was into it in the 1960s and soured on it later or saw it as unnecessary once he had a monopoly on the Northeast. 

I feel like for such an influential figure in pro wrestling, relatively little is known about Vince Sr. It's a shame that no proper biography was ever written about him and most of the people who could contribute to a biography as either dead or very old. 

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17 minutes ago, The Nature Boy said:

 I wonder if Vince Sr. was into it in the 1960s and soured on it later or saw it as unnecessary once he had a monopoly on the Northeast. 

I feel like for such an influential figure in pro wrestling, relatively little is known about Vince Sr. It's a shame that no proper biography was ever written about him and most of the people who could contribute to a biography as either dead or very old. 

Apter talks about him a bit in his book, but not a lot of details.  Just stuff like Vince Sr. threatening to not let Apter cover WWF if they continued to feature Apartment Wrestling ("We don't like this" McMahon said) and how Vince Sr. held a grudge against Stanley Weston (The publisher of PWI and the other "Apter Mags") because McMahon told Weston not to publish the title change from Buddy Rogers to Lou Thesz because he wanted to continue to recognize Rogers as champion and the magazine was the only way the news would get out there but that Weston went ahead and published the results which forced WWF to scramble and come up with a backstory (The old Buddy won a tournament in Rio de Janeiro story) to cover it up.

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6 hours ago, The Iron Yuppie said:

Wrestling needs a union so badly. WWE violates virtually every differentiation the IRS makes between Independent Contractor and Employee and gets off unscathed. Somehow, I doubt the current administration would make any efforts to curtail that in much of any business, but especially not one with the personal connections. 

My buddy and I were discussing wrestling unionization recently through the lens of Lucha Underground not allowing wrestlers to appear on televised shows elsewhere, even if said wrestler works a different gimmick outside of LU. I think of it like if AMC barred Bryan Cranston from acting in other roles while on Breaking Bad. That analogy brought up a thought: If forming a wrestling union isn't feasible, why don't wrestlers join SAG? 

Vince himself was the first to come out and essentially declare the industry a TV show. Wouldn't the wrestlers then qualify for SAG membership and protections? 

 

The problem with a wrestler's union is, and always will be, the way to make things equal for a union would go against everyone- promoters, wrestlers, and the fans themselves.

When you have something where scripted wins and losses dictate who makes the most money and who gets the most benefits on the shows, then a union would, by definition, dictate that this issue is fixed in order to give that money and that power to union members in a way that is beyond either “the promoter’s choice of performer gets all the money and benefits” (what we have now)…or even the “meritocracy” manner of who the fans decide (to a union, why should the fans' cheers or boos dictate who makes the most money and benefits? It should be equal for someone over like Cena and someone like Curt Hawkins to make the same money", even if that is patently absurd to anyone who watches TV).

From union regulations in most other unions, this need for equality to the union members would inevitably manifest in pushes being granted to performers based on their seniority and time without getting a big push, giving everyone a chance to get the intangibles of wins and pushes, so that they can get the most tangible reward they have (more money).

This would inevitably kill wrestling. Even if you think this is a good reward for long-running veterans like Zack Ryder who still have a strong cult following eventually getting their moment, like at Wrestlemania 32 (or even a subsequent WWE World Heavyweight Championship reign so Ryder can take home the real money)…if people hated Jinder Mahal's WWE Title reign for India's expansion, just wait until the inevitable unionized PPV where you have “Even though he’s not particularly over and never really HAS been over in WWE…due to being a 9-year veteran on WWE television with no major pushes in the past, union regulations mean that Summerslam 20[XX] will be main evented by Primo finally getting his chance to fight for the WWE World Championship.”

 

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35 minutes ago, SorceressKnight said:

The problem with a wrestler's union is, and always will be, the way to make things equal for a union would go against everyone- promoters, wrestlers, and the fans themselves.

When you have something where scripted wins and losses dictate who makes the most money and who gets the most benefits on the shows, then a union would, by definition, dictate that this issue is fixed in order to give that money and that power to union members in a way that is beyond either “the promoter’s choice of performer gets all the money and benefits” (what we have now)…or even the “meritocracy” manner of who the fans decide (to a union, why should the fans' cheers or boos dictate who makes the most money and benefits? It should be equal for someone over like Cena and someone like Curt Hawkins to make the same money", even if that is patently absurd to anyone who watches TV).

From union regulations in most other unions, this need for equality to the union members would inevitably manifest in pushes being granted to performers based on their seniority and time without getting a big push, giving everyone a chance to get the intangibles of wins and pushes, so that they can get the most tangible reward they have (more money).

This would inevitably kill wrestling. Even if you think this is a good reward for long-running veterans like Zack Ryder who still have a strong cult following eventually getting their moment, like at Wrestlemania 32 (or even a subsequent WWE World Heavyweight Championship reign so Ryder can take home the real money)…if people hated Jinder Mahal's WWE Title reign for India's expansion, just wait until the inevitable unionized PPV where you have “Even though he’s not particularly over and never really HAS been over in WWE…due to being a 9-year veteran on WWE television with no major pushes in the past, union regulations mean that Summerslam 20[XX] will be main evented by Primo finally getting his chance to fight for the WWE World Championship.”

 

It works really well in CMLL apparently.\

maxresdefault.jpg

(pictured: Maximo)

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31 minutes ago, SorceressKnight said:

The problem with a wrestler's union is, and always will be, the way to make things equal for a union would go against everyone- promoters, wrestlers, and the fans themselves.

When you have something where scripted wins and losses dictate who makes the most money and who gets the most benefits on the shows, then a union would, by definition, dictate that this issue is fixed in order to give that money and that power to union members in a way that is beyond either “the promoter’s choice of performer gets all the money and benefits” (what we have now)…or even the “meritocracy” manner of who the fans decide (to a union, why should the fans' cheers or boos dictate who makes the most money and benefits? It should be equal for someone over like Cena and someone like Curt Hawkins to make the same money", even if that is patently absurd to anyone who watches TV).

From union regulations in most other unions, this need for equality to the union members would inevitably manifest in pushes being granted to performers based on their seniority and time without getting a big push, giving everyone a chance to get the intangibles of wins and pushes, so that they can get the most tangible reward they have (more money).

This would inevitably kill wrestling. Even if you think this is a good reward for long-running veterans like Zack Ryder who still have a strong cult following eventually getting their moment, like at Wrestlemania 32 (or even a subsequent WWE World Heavyweight Championship reign so Ryder can take home the real money)…if people hated Jinder Mahal's WWE Title reign for India's expansion, just wait until the inevitable unionized PPV where you have “Even though he’s not particularly over and never really HAS been over in WWE…due to being a 9-year veteran on WWE television with no major pushes in the past, union regulations mean that Summerslam 20[XX] will be main evented by Primo finally getting his chance to fight for the WWE World Championship.”

 

Actors have a guild and some people still get paid way more than others. I don't know why you think a Union would influence creative decisions. 

The NFL has a Union and they don't give everyone playing time. 

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All unions aren't created equal. But there still will never be a union in wrestling as wrestlers are only concerned about their own pockets and the ones that would want one are the wrestlers that WWE could afford to lose. There are lots of wrestlers around the world that want to join WWE, they could lose their entire midcard tomorrow and still be fine.

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1 hour ago, SorceressKnight said:

The problem with a wrestler's union is, and always will be, the way to make things equal for a union would go against everyone- promoters, wrestlers, and the fans themselves.

When you have something where scripted wins and losses dictate who makes the most money and who gets the most benefits on the shows, then a union would, by definition, dictate that this issue is fixed in order to give that money and that power to union members in a way that is beyond either “the promoter’s choice of performer gets all the money and benefits” (what we have now)…or even the “meritocracy” manner of who the fans decide (to a union, why should the fans' cheers or boos dictate who makes the most money and benefits? It should be equal for someone over like Cena and someone like Curt Hawkins to make the same money", even if that is patently absurd to anyone who watches TV).

From union regulations in most other unions, this need for equality to the union members would inevitably manifest in pushes being granted to performers based on their seniority and time without getting a big push, giving everyone a chance to get the intangibles of wins and pushes, so that they can get the most tangible reward they have (more money).

This would inevitably kill wrestling. Even if you think this is a good reward for long-running veterans like Zack Ryder who still have a strong cult following eventually getting their moment, like at Wrestlemania 32 (or even a subsequent WWE World Heavyweight Championship reign so Ryder can take home the real money)…if people hated Jinder Mahal's WWE Title reign for India's expansion, just wait until the inevitable unionized PPV where you have “Even though he’s not particularly over and never really HAS been over in WWE…due to being a 9-year veteran on WWE television with no major pushes in the past, union regulations mean that Summerslam 20[XX] will be main evented by Primo finally getting his chance to fight for the WWE World Championship.”

 

This is not remotely true. A union could collectively bargain for a minimum salary, revenue sharing, and other various benefits while still allowing for individual contracts based on performance/value (see: every sports league in America).

By this logic, Michael Carter Williams could force his team to give him as many minutes as James Harden, or Tim Allen could force Marvel to cast him as the lead of their next summer blockbuster.

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On 7/4/2017 at 10:44 PM, Casey said:

Kevin Owens' DVD is sold out at a number of places. You can still get the DVD on Amazon, but the Blu-Ray option is sold out with no restock date listed.

 

I went to HMV last Wednesday and picked Fight Owens Fight: The Kevin Owens Story from the shelves. I always planned on getting as I’m a Kevin Owens fan, the documentary and I was very happy with the matches picked when revealed. I went through to buy it having read this post.

The documentary is one of the best put out by WWE. Kevin Owens is so likeable as a family man. You get footage from CZW and ROH which adds to the presentation, the Kevin Steen vs. El Generico ROH history is a highlight. Another is seeing Kevin’s WWE tryout and the promo he cut there. Kevin said it got him his WWE job, he’s right.

The special features are very good, my favourite was the no singlet story as he figured he’d have to wear one. I won’t spoil it. As someone with an interest in wrestlers gear, did Kevin ever say why he went from singlet to the sleeveless shirt/shorts look in ROH?

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On 7/8/2017 at 2:24 AM, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I don't blame Aries, then. The cruiserweight division is never going to be what the CWC was. The CWC was great, but it should have been left at that. Taping 205 Live after Smackdown was like a death blow for the division.

WWE can't do Cruiserweight unlike WCW's and NJPW's Jr. Heavyweights.

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8 hours ago, SorceressKnight said:

 

if people hated Jinder Mahal's WWE Title reign for India's expansion, just wait until the inevitable unionized PPV where you have “Even though he’s not particularly over and never really HAS been over in WWE…due to being a 9-year veteran on WWE television with no major pushes in the past, union regulations mean that Summerslam 20[XX] will be main evented by Primo finally getting his chance to fight for the WWE World Championship.”

 

I'd jizz in my pants if that happened.

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12 hours ago, SorceressKnight said:

or even the “meritocracy” manner of who the fans decide (to a union, why should the fans' cheers or boos dictate who makes the most money and benefits? It should be equal for someone over like Cena and someone like Curt Hawkins to make the same money", even if that is patently absurd to anyone who watches TV).

This was basically Ryback's argument in that manifesto he wrote after leaving.  While it may seem patently absurd on one hand, on the other hand, the WWE controls who receives pushes so basing salary on who gets pushed means WWE can pay people whatever they want.  Ryback specifically argued he was cooled off and hidden on the pre-show right as his contract was expiring and he was starting to get over again so they could justify offering him a lower contract renewal.


As for Cena and Hawkins, he also argued that despite their position on the card, they were putting their bodies on the line equally, so were deserving of much more comparable pay.

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