UFC Fight Night 112: Chiesa vs. Lee (6/25/2017) - Oklahoma City, OK (Chesapeake Energy Arena)

[Elsalvajeloco]

5 minutes ago, Kevin Wilson said:

I don't really see that as requiring a re-match like both seemed to be open to, I think he was about two seconds from going out anyway, I've seen far worse stops. Lee needs to move on to better things, not fight again against someone that by then will probably be ranked #8 or so. Thems the breaks sometimes in MMA, no need to stall Lee's career a match.

Anyway, it would be better to let Chiesa get one or two wins before even thinking about doing a rematch. Adding stakes to the fight would be better.

[TheVileOne]

Sucks for Chiesa, but them's the breaks.  Mario Yamasaki usually doesn't mess up this bad, but he has before.  Honestly though, I thought it might've looked like Chiesa might've tapped before it ultimately stopped, but he might've just been trying to fight to get out.  But whatever.

[Jiji]

Just skimming through the prelims. Jeremy Kimball hit a man with a standing hammer fist or some such nonsense. Whut. the. fuck. Pure savagery. "That's the grizzly."

[The Natural]

On 6/20/2017 at 8:01 PM, Kevin Wilson said:

Penn is opening a low level Fight Night card now? Jesus. He needs a good friend to tell him its time to move on to a new phase of his career.

I only found out BJ Penn was on the show, brain not engaging. Yeah, BJ Penn really needs to call it a day. Penn's drop is one of the worst in MMA, Chuck Liddell tops them.

[The Natural]

3 hours ago, The Natural said:

Johny Hendricks has missed weight 3 or 4 times now. It's just not on failing like that. John Lineker holdss the record with 5?

[supremebve]

7 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

After Kish surviving the choke from Herrig, it is a horrendous stop.

The difference is that Kish was actively trying to get out, but Chiesa stopped moving, fighting his hands, or anything else.  It was premature, but I wouldn't say that is a bad stoppage.  He pretty much stopped intelligently defending himself, which is a reason for the ref to stop a fight.

[Elsalvajeloco]

2 hours ago, supremebve said:

The difference is that Kish was actively trying to get out, but Chiesa stopped moving, fighting his hands, or anything else.  It was premature, but I wouldn't say that is a bad stoppage.  He pretty much stopped intelligently defending himself, which is a reason for the ref to stop a fight.

A premature stoppage is a bad stoppage.

Actively getting out only matters if it is a submission on an arm or a leg or the fighter is clearly unconscious. With chokes, there has to be a tap either verbally or physically. Neither of those happened. Thus, it is a pretty bad stoppage. A technical submission with chokes is the fighter going unconscious. Chiesa was still conscious clearly. Again, making it a pretty bad stoppage. Whether Chiesa was "actively" doing something doesn't change what the rules are.

The same thing that happened in Leandro Silva vs. Drew Dober applies here. Even if Silva had the choke a little tighter, Dober not tapping or going out is a very bad stoppage.

[Elsalvajeloco]

 

[supremebve]

1 hour ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

A premature stoppage is a bad stoppage.

Actively getting out only matters if it is a submission on an arm or a leg or the fighter is clearly unconscious. With chokes, there has to be a tap either verbally or physically. Neither of those happened. Thus, it is a pretty bad stoppage. A technical submission with chokes is the fighter going unconscious. Chiesa was still conscious clearly. Again, making it a pretty bad stoppage. Whether Chiesa was "actively" doing something doesn't change what the rules are.

The same thing that happened in Leandro Silva vs. Drew Dober applies here. Even if Silva had the choke a little tighter, Dober not tapping or going out is a very bad stoppage.

It was premature, but only because it didn't happen a second or two later.  If the fighter stops defending the choke, which he did, why is that different than if he stopped defending anything else?  I honestly thought he was unconscious, because he stopped fighting his hands and his arms were just hovering aimlessly.  He was not getting out of that choke, he stopped trying to get out of that choke, and I have no issue with the ref stopping the fight when he stopped defending himself.  If you've ever been in a tight rear naked choke, you are either fighting to get out, tapping, or deciding to go unconscious.  He did the latter, and I don't mind the fact that he stopped it before he actually passed out.  

[Elsalvajeloco]

7 minutes ago, supremebve said:

It was premature, but only because it didn't happen a second or two later.  If the fighter stops defending the choke, which he did, why is that different than if he stopped defending anything else?

Because he didn't tap and a tap is the most integral part of the whole equation. It's not rocket science. All Yamasaki had to do was wait until Chiesa tapped or went out. If he was going to tap, then let him do that. Submissions specifically chokes (since the fighter isn't going to suffer a horrific injury as a result) aren't judged on the level of what the fighter does to defend that submission. If the fighter doesn't tap or go unconscious, DO NOT STOP THE FIGHT. Simple as that. Those are the rules and Kevin Lee is likely to lose a good win because Mario Yamasaki did a horrendous job.

[supremebve]

2 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Because he didn't tap and a tap is the most integral part of the whole equation. It's not rocket science. All Yamasaki had to do was wait until Chiesa tapped or went out. If he was going to tap, then let him do that. Submissions specifically chokes (since the fighter isn't going to suffer a horrific injury as a result) aren't judged on the level of what the fighter does to defend that choke. If the fighter doesn't tap or go unconscious, DO NOT STOP THE FIGHT. Simple as that. Those are the rules and Kevin Lee is likely to lose a good win because Mario Yamasaki did a horrendous job.

I get where you are coming from, but I also think it's semantic.  I honestly think Yamasaki thought that Chiesa went out when he stopped defending.  It was a mistake, but I think is an understandable mistake based on Cheisa's decision to stop defending the choke like he did.  If you are in a choke, and you decide your best defense is to lay there and do nothing, the ref may think you are unconscious.  Yamasaki didn't have multiple replays to decide whether or not he went out, he just saw Chiesa stop fighting his hands and lay there lifelessly.  Until Chiesa jumped up complaining I thought he made the right decision.  

[Elsalvajeloco]

Just now, supremebve said:

I get where you are coming from, but I also think it's semantic.   

Except it isn't make up your own MMA rules day on Sunday. Those are the rules. This isn't an opinion. THESE ARE RULES. Mario Yamasaki didn't follow the rules, and thus it is a terrible stoppage. Am I speaking French?

[Kevin Wilson]

37 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Except it isn't make up your own MMA rules day on Sunday. Those are the rules. This isn't an opinion. THESE ARE RULES. Mario Yamasaki didn't follow the rules, and thus it is a terrible stoppage. Am I speaking French?

I'm not trying to be funny, but is that an actual rule? I've never seen it printed anywhere when its ok for a referee to stop a fight, or how they are required to determine if a fighter is unconscious (best judgement, arm raise, verbal command?). I thought Cheisa was out too until he jumped up, so did Mario, so I just don't see it rising to the level that some people are putting it to. People are more annoyed than usual since it was the main event, but on the grand scale of injustices between referees and judges this doesn't rank very high to me.

[Kevin Wilson]

I guess its time for the bi-annual "what to do with Johny Hendricks" discussion. 2-5 in the last 7, still has issues making weight, and having issues beating mid-level fighters. But he is still popular, just keep him around in a mid-level gatekeeper?

[Elsalvajeloco]

11 minutes ago, Kevin Wilson said:

I'm not trying to be funny, but is that an actual rule?

Yes. The ABC or unified rules only recognize a physical tapout OR verbal tapout. The only unofficial leeway obviously is with armbar, kneebar, ankle locks, etc. where fighters are clearly (or might be) on the verge of legit physical harm to an appendage. Even then, you get bad calls on certain armbars that really weren't in. When have you EVER seen a referee stop a fight in a choke where a tapout or the fighter going out didn't occur?

11 minutes ago, Kevin Wilson said:

how they are required to determine if a fighter is unconscious (best judgement, arm raise, verbal command?)

Any action to best determine if Chiesa is out is best. If you're not sure, you can always check to see if he is limp.

11 minutes ago, Kevin Wilson said:

I thought Cheisa was out too until he jumped up, so did Mario, so I just don't see it rising to the level that some people are putting it to. 

Except he wasn't out and Mario didn't check (which he can do) to see if he was out. That's why people are mad...other than you know the other areas of that he screwed up.

[Elsalvajeloco]

13 minutes ago, Kevin Wilson said:

I guess its time for the bi-annual "what to do with Johny Hendricks" discussion. 2-5 in the last 7, still has issues making weight, and having issues beating mid-level fighters. But he is still popular, just keep him around in a mid-level gatekeeper?

Apparently, he got sick (a fever) during fight week and that's why he didn't make weight this time.

Put him against small-ish middleweights. Before the Lombard fight, I said his upside is being on the cusp of top 15-20. I don't think this loss changes that.

[The Natural]

1 hour ago, Kevin Wilson said:

I guess its time for the bi-annual "what to do with Johny Hendricks" discussion. 2-5 in the last 7, still has issues making weight, and having issues beating mid-level fighters. But he is still popular, just keep him around in a mid-level gatekeeper?

I'd can Johny Hendricks for missing weight on numerous occasions. Everyone makes mistakes in life, but he keeps fucking up.

[TheVileOne]

Ban Mario Yamasaki and send him packing like Mazzagatti.

[Hail Sabin]

Yeah watching Herrig vs. Kish and then Lee vs. Chiesa makes it even worse.

[supremebve]

1 hour ago, Hail Sabin said:

Yeah watching Herrig vs. Kish and then Lee vs. Chiesa makes it even worse.

Kish never stopped fighting the choke, Chiesa clearly stopped defending.  Those two situations aren't the same at all.  He straight up conceded to the choke, and that is why I don't think this is a big deal.  Once you stop fighting off your opponent's hands and/or legs, you aren't getting out of a deep choke.  Yamasaki stopped the fight early, but not until after Chiesa stopped working to get out of the choke.  At that point, the fight was over, unless Lee decided to let him go.  

[Elsalvajeloco]

3 hours ago, supremebve said:

Kish never stopped fighting the choke, Chiesa clearly stopped defending.  Those two situations aren't the same at all.  He straight up conceded to the choke, and that is why I don't think this is a big deal.  Once you stop fighting off your opponent's hands and/or legs, you aren't getting out of a deep choke.  Yamasaki stopped the fight early, but not until after Chiesa stopped working to get out of the choke.

He has to wait for the tap or Chiesa going unconscious. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT! A referee in the NFL doesn't signal touchdown until the player touches the goalline. Every now and then, you get a DeSean Jackson situation where a player drops the ball before the player reaches the goalline when all the dudes behind him have pretty much given up on the play. If a referee did that, he isn't going to be calling another major NFL game for a long while.

Mario Yamasaki couldn't wait until he tapped out? Like that's his whole job. Kevin Lee is going to lose a win because he couldn't wait three or four whole seconds. That's a pretty big deal.

All this defense stuff is irrelevant to the rules of the sport Mario Yamasaki is presiding over in the cage. It doesn't matter if he conceded the choke. WAIT UNTIL HE TAPS OUT OR LOSES CONSCIOUSNESS. That's the only way the fight ends. 

[username]

If I was Chiesa I'd be thanking god that Yamasaki made that bad call as he was likely unconscious in the next few seconds and now he can claim he was robbed.  He should make a big show of wanting to fight Lee again and then go fight someone else, it did not look like he had much of a shot.

[Elsalvajeloco]

I would like to see Lee against the winner of MJ/Gaethje. Johnson and Lee already have beef going back to the last big presser. Also, depending on what happens in the next couple months, Lee could end up in the Khabib/Ferguson mix. Plenty of top lightweights to go around.

[Kevin Wilson]

5 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

He has to wait for the tap or Chiesa going unconscious. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT! A referee in the NFL doesn't signal touchdown until the player touches the goalline. Every now and then, you get a DeSean Jackson situation where a player drops the ball before the player reaches the goalline when all the dudes behind him have pretty much given up on the play. If a referee did that, he isn't going to be calling another major NFL game for a long while.

Mario Yamasaki couldn't wait until he tapped out? Like that's his whole job. Kevin Lee is going to lose a win because he couldn't wait three or four whole seconds. That's a pretty big deal.

All this defense stuff is irrelevant to the rules of the sport Mario Yamasaki is presiding over in the cage. It doesn't matter if he conceded the choke. WAIT UNTIL HE TAPS OUT OR LOSES CONSCIOUSNESS. That's the only way the fight ends. 

I don't imagine Lee is losing a win, I don't think he is losing any sleep over it nor do I think UFC is going to hold it against him. No one is saying it wasn't a bad call, but it wasn't him breaking the rules or anything over the top, he was just incorrect in thinking Cheisa had gone completely out. He thought he was unconscious, he just jumped the gun. It certainly would have been better to just let Cheisa go out but if this was Big John I think people would be giving him the benefit of the doubt.

I watched people go to sleep, that's a fighter going to sleep or already asleep. He went from trying to get out of it to doing the stiff arms thing that is never ideal. I agree with you it was a bit early, it clearly was. But stopping something a second early isn't a crime, its just one of those unfortunate things that happens on a semi-regular basis. It wasn't even the worse MMA referee call of the weekend.

[TheVileOne]

Kish got out of a super tight RNC earlier.  It's not impossible.  Your opponent can burn their arms out holding onto that choke.