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NJPW 2017 G1 Climax 27


Raziel

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1 hour ago, MapRef41N93W said:

This is a great point. I've only been following NJPW at all closely for about a year, but in that time I'e been struck by how aimless their tag booking is in comparison to their masterful approach to heavyweight singles.

yeah. I feel like I say this every year too and we still have pretty much the same thing we have now. they'll build something ahead of the Dome at the Tag League. no excuse not to go a bit harder though.

anyway, here is my top ten of the G1

01. Minoru Suzuki vs. Kazuchika Okada
02. Kenny Omega vs. Kazuchika Okada
03. Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Tetsuya Naito
04. Tetsuya Naito vs. Kenny Omega
05. Tomohiro Ishii vs. Yuji Nagata
06. Michael Elgin vs. Kenny Omega
07. Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Tomohiro Ishii
08. Tetsuya Naito vs. Tomohiro Ishii
09. Kazuchika Okada vs. EVIL
10. Satoshi Kojima vs. Juice Robinson

next ten would feature whole cluster of Ibushi and Nagata.

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10 minutes ago, EVA said:

I think a problem with Kenny's style is he's capable of so much cool shit and has SO. MANY. Ideas, that he isn't always as considerate as he needs to be as to how all that stuff fits together in a match, or if it should even be in the story they're telling in the first place.

Like, look at when he countered Naito's superplex into a freakin' DDT into the ringpost.  It looked like death and the crowd was aghast.  You'd think that would be a nice transition to Kenny going on offense...but instead it actually turns into Naito going on a long run of offense?  What?

Same thing happened the night before against Okada.  Kenny goes for a springboard, Okada counters with a dropkick that bumps him all the way to the floor.  Looks great.  Fantastic transition to offense for Okada.  Except it turned out to actually be a transition for Kenny to hit a reverse rana on the floor.

In the lead up to the Okada match, he's in the press talking up this great new counter to the Rainmaker that he's come up with.  And when he hits the uranage, it, again, looks like death.  Great.  But then, not only is it just a 2-count, not only does it not lead into Kenny's finishing stretch to win the match, but Okada literally hits him with another Rainmaker, like, 10 seconds afterward.  Okada is on top again right after Kenny debuted his big Rainmaker killer.

These are things that keep him out of the top-top tier of guys in the world, IMO.  When he really cuts it loose, he has a tendency to undermine drama for the sake of spectacular workrate.

Naito is guilty of this too. He gets hit with something ridiculous and then the next move after a lot of selling is a transition move by Naito. I rewatched last year's Omega/Naito match yesterday and after Kenny hits the powerbomb through the table and THAT tope over the guard rail Naito goes on offense shortly after that. And the one defense to this argument regarding yesterday's match with Okada is this wasn't a regular match. This was Okada in desperation mode because he was fighting an uphill battle from the get go. It wasn't a 50/50 match. I'm not disagreeing with the general principle but I think this is a criticism a lot of people are guilty of, including golden child Naito. He does an awful lot of transition moves that aren't just hope spots after getting wrecked. He sells a lot between these spots but they're still there. There wasn't a whole lot of time between him getting the avalanche piledriver and Naito's comeback for the win iirc. 

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all of the top guys have stuff they could work on with layouts, psychology, selling, moveset, etc. it's fascinating really. we know we're being spoiled now, and we'll look back and remember it fondly, but it is true that Naito does race through stuff. but they do improve in little ways. as a face Naito used to sell with this vacant look on his face like he was slightly bored during a film. now he doesn't.

so yeah: Omega is a bit goofy, Okada could bulk up just a little, Tanahashi's moveset seems weak by comparison, Ishii tends to favour certain spots, etc. I've read stuff written about the Four Pillars during the era that nitpicks about how Kobashi oversold, or stuff about classic NWA about Ric Flair having a certain match layout...as long as we keep perspective that this is all Very Good Stuff then I think it's cool to prod at them.

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Naito is definitely guilty of excess, too.  Which is probably why he and Kenny have such entertaining matches.

To go back to my example...so Kenny hits the ring post DDT, then goes for the top rope powerbomb which Naito counters into that spectacular hurricanrana, because he is somehow not dead.  (Which truly was spectactular, that Kenny could hoist him ALL the way up while maintaining perfect balance and then both of them execute the rana without dying.)

What happens next?  Naito puts Kenny right BACK on the top rope and does a reverse rana from up there!  WHAT?  Was one insane, literally death-defying rana spot not enough, Naito?  You really had to run straight back and do it again?  I feel like spiking Kenny with Gloria or something would've been just as well, but okay!

And then Kenny kicks out!  From TWO ranas off the top!  And then he moves out of the way on a Stardust Press and is right back on offense!

My jaw was on the floor this whole time, so I'm not saying it did nothing for me, but c'mon, guys.  Believe it or not, you could do less, even if it is the G1 final.

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I agree. I fucking love current day New Japan  but it's closer to '96-'00 All Japan than the smarter, more psychology based stuff from the Misawa/Jumbo feud through 6/5/95 (still the best match of all time imo). There is too much stuff in these New Japan matches and some of it looks too choreographed. Those are my main criticisms of this style. They could shave off a few moves here or there... Or at least make them mean a bit more by spacing them out. 

That golden age of All Japan, man... The matches didn't get too cute, they felt like fights, they told long term storylines with facial expressions and moves, and almost everything meant something late on in the match. That I'm actually having to take some time to think if I prefer this New Japan era to that All Japan run says everything about how great Okada, Naito, Omega, and Tanahashi (and Ibushi and Ishii and...) all are and how they could get even better. 

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I don't know that Naito and Omega are the least flawed wrestlers in the world, but they are--to me--the most compelling. Of course they're athletic and charismatic, but there's always an ineffable quality to people who demand to be watched, even in meaningless tags. Paradoxically, I think that's why I notice their warts--I see everything they do, and watch intently. And of course "everything they do" includes a lot of big matches, with a lot of time to fill. 

It's a bit like how there are no perfect novels; but there are great ones, and for the most part, it's those we consider to be worth discussing and analyzing. Omega and Naito are indulgent prose stylists, who could perhaps use a heavier editing hand, a tighter sense of plot; but the characters are compelling, the dialogue sharp, and I'm always invested/entertained.

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Oh, definitely.  They're great, and because they're great, there's a lot more nitpicking because we're paying more attention.

I mean, when Bix wrote up the Omega/Okada matches, he was critiquing Omega for having awkward gut kicks and kicking out the same way through the whole match.  I feel like if you're to the point of criticizing how a guy kicks out, then that guy must be pretty damn good at a lot of other stuff.

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I am sure I could pick apart the main event, but right now I am just going to be happy my boy Naito won and just enjoyed the spectacle that ended such an incredible tournament. Also I absolutely loved Chono looking all bad ass Bond villain celebrating with Naito and LIJ. 

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 I would argue lazy toe kicks to the gut to set up moves from a front facelock or piledriver position was/is a problem with a certain breed of indie kid, specifically ones who grew up playing CAWs in early Smackdown! games AND who did a lot a Stunners to their friends. I'm completely serious. And Kenny is a part of that. VIDEO GAME PRO WRESTLING.

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@Michael Sweetser Meltzer gets asked this a lot and recently answered by saying the boys put together their matches with little to no input from Gedo. I'm sure there's some big, overarching themes that Gedo wants them to hit upon but they have full artistic licence. That's another reason why I don't think Omega will go to WWE anytime soon. He's very protective of his style and he'll have next to no autonomy working with Vince and HHH.

Omega's early match strikes are so exaggerated and loopy. He's often talked about being influenced more by things outside of wrestling lately... Some of that and his selling remind me of Jackie Chan's mannerisms with the arm circles and such.

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19 minutes ago, Michael Sweetser said:

This may be a dumb question, but do New Japan matches have agents like WWE does?  It feels a lot of the issues with overkill on moves could be solved with someone looking things over and keeping them in perspective.  


Using many big spots is part of their style at this point, they're used to fill up space in the match. 

They really don't work any old style of Njpw anymore. Very much did away with the methodical working holds and limbs matches sprinkled with some spots style or the wild brawls like Inoki or Choshu or Shinya could do at times. 

I've also read about Gedo and Jado telling workers to reduce doing extenstive arm and leg work matches back in 2009, thinking causals wouldn't understand. Letting it be mostly Tanahashi and few other guys doing it. 

They also went somewhat very formulaic with match layouts around then. Tanahashi also wanted more workrate big bombs based matches which did happen when bushi-road bought them out.

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Instead of an overall list of my favorite matches, I'm gonna list my Best of the Block Round for each guy:

A Block:

Bad Luck Fale: vs. Ishii

Goto: vs. Ishii

Ibushi: vs. Sabre Jr.

Ishii: vs. Naito

Makabe: vs. Tanahashi

Nagata: vs. Fale

Naito: vs. Tanahashi

Sabre Jr: vs. Ishii

Tanahashi: vs. Naito

Yoshi-Hashi: vs. Naito

B Block:

Elgin: vs. Okada

EVIL: vs. Okada

Kojima: vs. Juice

Okada: vs. Omega

Omega: vs. Okada

Juice: vs. Omega

Sanada: vs. Juice

Suzuki: vs. Okada

Tonga: vs. Juice

Yano: vs. Omega

So basically, Okada had the best overall tournament, and Ishii and Juice are your stealth MVPs for their respective blocks.

 

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Obviously, he has a lot of upside and NJPW is kicking the tires on him as a potential top guy down the line, but he simply didn't show much progression as a singles wrestler from last year's G1 to this one.  He managed to have a pretty blah match with Okada, which is a really hard thing to do right now if you're any good at all.  If not for Tama Tonga, he'd easily have been the worst performer in that block.

So I think he still has a ways to go before he gets seriously pushed into any of the singles titles pictures.

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Superstar ceiling and he slowly moves up the card. He needs to work on emoting a bit more later on in matches because Mutoh was pretty great at early stoicism and later adding in some more emotion. During an interview with WOR, Omega said SANADA needs to have more self belief and stand up for himself, so that probably plays into a whole lot of things for SANADA.

I love him though. Got his new tank top on the way. He's on the cusp but just needs a little something and I'm guessing that something comes along with what Omega said.

Seems to be pretty divisive around here but I think most people see the potential even if it's partially untapped.

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2 hours ago, Dragonzombie said:


Using many big spots is part of their style at this point, they're used to fill up space in the match. 

They really don't work any old style of Njpw anymore. Very much did away with the methodical working holds and limbs matches sprinkled with some spots style or the wild brawls like Inoki or Choshu or Shinya could do at times. 

I've also read about Gedo and Jado telling workers to reduce doing extenstive arm and leg work matches back in 2009, thinking causals wouldn't understand. Letting it be mostly Tanahashi and few other guys doing it. 

They also went somewhat very formulaic with match layouts around then. Tanahashi also wanted more workrate big bombs based matches which did happen when bushi-road bought them out.

Ohyeah, I have no issue with that - nor do I want it to go back to the way it was.

It's more that it's been turned up to 11, when they'd be just fine at 10.

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 SANADA doesn't emote enough. He's not a supporting actor on a multi-camera AMC series, there are few reasons for a wrestler to ever be subtle when wrestling in front of 10,000+. The way he grimaces, shouts, opens and closes his eyes, he's got to project that to the grannies in the bleacher seats. I've done enough academic and community theater to tell you that not everybody has that gift. It can be strangely hard to teach. SANADA is a very common example of a guy who has everything else going for him, but guys like him usually cap out at the mid-card.

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The emoting thing is tricky though because he's playing the modern day stoic Japanese punk. I'm with you, but it's complicated. I think Okada has settled into a nice midpoint of keeping his cocky air/nonchalance but later on lets out the odd guttural roar and at times looks concerned. SANADA needs to get to that point where he doesn't lose his mystique but comes off more human and therefore the fans have something to cling onto. Naito also does this very well and hopefully it eventually rubs off on SANADA.

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 I woudn't dog him on it if he hadn't BEEN doing it. The last time I watched AJPW with any regularity was when he was coming up with Manabu Soya and I remember thinking the same thing then. So many NJPW guys throughout the company's history excelled at expressing themselves to the entire crowd. Hashimoto was an absolute master. Inoki was damn near magical. Okada's very good when he feels like it, same thing as Mutoh. Liger does it at an A+ level every night with a mask on, I didn't seen a lot from his TNA run, did he do anything different in front of a different crowd / more intimate arena?

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I wish they'd picked up Manabu Soya instead of Sanada if they were gonna take a W-1 guy. Soya was imo the best in the world from around 2011 until he got hurt in Dec 2012. Shame his development stymied so much once he came back and left AJPW.  I'd love to see him against guys like Ishii,  Goto and Evil just to see what's left in his tank.  

For the record my dream match of any two guys in Japan right now is Okada vs Kento Miyahara.  

Just watched the G1 final.  Thought there were way too many big moves,  not enough story or consistent selling,  and way too much dangerous stuff that looked scary and hurt-y. Glad to see these concerns echoed by so many folks on here.  Good match between two great guys that would've been better minus the overkill. The analogy with late 90s AJPW (as opposed to early 90s) was spot on. 

 

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4 hours ago, Belgian_Waffle said:

I wish they'd picked up Manabu Soya instead of Sanada if they were gonna take a W-1 guy. Soya was imo the best in the world from around 2011 until he got hurt in Dec 2012. Shame his development stymied so much once he came back and left AJPW.  I'd love to see him against guys like Ishii,  Goto and Evil just to see what's left in his tank.  

For the record my dream match of any two guys in Japan right now is Okada vs Kento Miyahara.  

Just watched the G1 final.  Thought there were way too many big moves,  not enough story or consistent selling,  and way too much dangerous stuff that looked scary and hurt-y. Glad to see these concerns echoed by so many folks on here.  Good match between two great guys that would've been better minus the overkill. The analogy with late 90s AJPW (as opposed to early 90s) was spot on. 

 

I think SANADA works really well in Los Ingobernables, though. He's got the right personality for it, and he has a good look. I'm not too sure where Soya would fit in in the company outside of a midcard bruiser? SANADA has found a role, is basically what I'm saying, and I'm not overly convinced Soya would.

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