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JUNE 2017 WRESTLING DISCUSSION


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1 minute ago, mattdangerously said:

I think you're going to need to show your work on that one.

Keep in mind I'm one of those guys who never thinks Trips graduated past "pretty good worker most of the times" I'm also arguing Mero might have a case for to 5 wrestler in WWF in 96, a case I can"t see for Hunter in basically any year.

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48 minutes ago, El Dragon said:

If i had the spare time, a Johnny B Badd/Marc Mero 94-96 deep dive seems like it could be really fun.

He had some really good matches with DDP during that time. That's pretty much when most fans started to take DDP seriously as a wrestler.

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42 minutes ago, mattdangerously said:

I think you're going to need to show your work on that one.

Yeah I agree with you. Hunter had an all-time great year in 2000. Outside of that match with Pillman, I don't know if Mero has much that compares with what Hunter was doing then.

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I've been on a big Flair 87-90 kick lately. Kinda weird b/c he's already accepted as an all-time great in the ring so it's easy to gloss over just how good he was. He really was awesome at being a dick when going after a guy's knee. Letting them get comebacks and then just kicking their leg from under their leg (tm Owen Hart). I rewatched a couple of draws he had with WIndham (the Worldwide match and a couple others) and the way he sold getting put in a headlock was amazing to me. They made restholds look like actual moves that were designed to wear a guy down. It wasn't just a lazy "slap on a chinlock and sit there" sort of thing. Windham would put him in a headlock and they'd go through a series of reversals and pinfalls off it. Actually working. That's the sort of stuff I love.

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1 hour ago, cwoy2j said:

He had some really good matches with DDP during that time. That's pretty much when most fans started to take DDP seriously as a wrestler.

Didn't he have some decent matches with Booty Man as well?

WCW right before nWo came in was getting good and starting to elevate some guys.  I would like to see where Regal would have gone post-Sting feud if nWo didn't happen.

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3 hours ago, JonnyLaw said:

Didn't he have some decent matches with Booty Man as well?

WCW right before nWo came in was getting good and starting to elevate some guys.  I would like to see where Regal would have gone post-Sting feud if nWo didn't happen.

Well he had some matches with The Booty Man. I wouldn't exactly call them decent. That's just my opinion though.

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8 hours ago, El Dragon said:

Keep in mind I'm one of those guys who never thinks Trips graduated past "pretty good worker most of the times" I'm also arguing Mero might have a case for to 5 wrestler in WWF in 96, a case I can"t see for Hunter in basically any year.

Austin, Michaels, Bret, Owen, Mankind were all in the WWF at the same time as Mero.  Who was worse than Mero?

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4 hours ago, cwoy2j said:

Well he had some matches with The Booty Man. I wouldn't exactly call them decent. That's just my opinion though.

He got about as much as you could have gotten out of Ed Leslie in 1995.

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9 hours ago, RolandTHTG said:

In hindsight, the split personality thing may have been wasted on Foley.

I'd have totally been up for Wildman Marc Mero not being able to get the best of Goldust, and eventually snaps into becoming Johnny B Badd. 

By the end of the year he was basically Johnny B. Badd without the name. 

Also DDP wrestled Brutus not Badd. 

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11 hours ago, mattdangerously said:

Austin, Michaels, Bret, Owen, Mankind were all in the WWF at the same time as Mero.  Who was worse than Mero?

While I would tend to take quality over quantity, Owen was mostly in Tag matches and Bret was gone from TV for more than half a year in 1996. So while I don't agree, there is a foundation for taking Bret out since he was inactive for a big part of 96? Owen maybe because of not having a strong singles showing in that year. I liked Foley's Mankind-run a lot, but he's not on the level of those you mentioned. I'd sub him with Taker who started breaking out of the confinements of his gimmick in 96 imo.

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1 hour ago, ReiseReise said:

While I would tend to take quality over quantity, Owen was mostly in Tag matches and Bret was gone from TV for more than half a year in 1996. So while I don't agree, there is a foundation for taking Bret out since he was inactive for a big part of 96? Owen maybe because of not having a strong singles showing in that year. I liked Foley's Mankind-run a lot, but he's not on the level of those you mentioned. I'd sub him with Taker who started breaking out of the confinements of his gimmick in 96 imo.

I'm not going to get into the discussion much since you guys have that handled pretty well.  But I respectfully disagree about Foley solely for the Mind Games match.  Dude came up with most of the match and it turned into an all-time classic.  So as long as that was in '96 he to me he deserves to considered at that level.

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16 minutes ago, NikoBaltimore said:

I'm not going to get into the discussion much since you guys have that handled pretty well.  But I respectfully disagree about Foley solely for the Mind Games match.  Dude came up with most of the match and it turned into an all-time classic.  So as long as that was in '96 he to me he deserves to considered at that level.

Amazing match. My 1996 MOTY and a top ten match in the history of the company.

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Shawn Michaels/Mankind In Your House 10: Mind Games didn't have a clean decisive finish but for me, it never tainted the wonderful work before it. I'd maybe only have five matches ahead of it in greatest WWF/E matches discussion.

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If I were ranking 96 talent, in no particular order. 

1. Goldust
2. Mankind
3. Austin
4. Shawn
 

Other guys

Sid:  I felt he delivered in big matches and was good in TV squashes. 

Vader: He had good matches but most of the time he was handcuffed and booked like Yokozuna instead of Big Van Vader. 

Bret Hart: Bret was gone most of the year, when he was around he was the best. 

Owen Hart: When used he was great. A lotta the time he was a background player. 

Bulldog: Same as Owen, as a tag team they really came together. Enjoyed his work with Shawn. 

Bradshaw: Most of his stuff was on Superstars. Really liked the match with Jake Roberts and the Raw match with Taker where Mankind debut. 

Jake Roberts had a pretty good year in all. I watched his Smokey Mountain work and its a shame he wasted the later part of his career. He did have the Bradshaw KOTR match and he was a big part of Austin 3:16 work wise. I think Austin beating him so savagely really put it over the top. 

Mero had a good year once he started acting like Johnny B, Badd. I remember liking the match with Farqooq. He also had the only watchable matches HHH had in 1996 minus Warrior squashing him. 


 

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Bob Arum was on ESPN's Mike and Mike show this morning.  Since he was there mostly to drum up publicity for a Manny Pacquiao fight that's going to be broadcast live on ESPN, it's kinda surprising they spent several minutes discussing the infamous Ali-Inoki match,  Arum said it was the worst thing he'd ever gotten involved in, though I think what he meant was that he had no idea how to promote the thing.  He said he went to Vince for help and Vince laid out the match structure and gave him an ending (this supports the rumor that it was originally supposed to be a worked match).  Also said that he had to fly to Japan to reassure Ali and convince him not to back out of the fight.

He made wrestling sound a bit like an outlaw version of MMA.  Referred to Inoki as an actor, not an athlete, and talked a fair bit about Inoki concealing a razor blade in his mouth to cut himself (blade) and kicking Ali in the shins with his cleats,  Supposedly , Ali's legs got infected from the small cuts.  According to Bret Hart, Inoki spent the match being passive and kicking Ali in the shin because Ali's people threatened to kill him if he actually fought the champ.

Don't remember the exact comment, but Arum finished describing the match with some dismissive remark to the effect of "then the ridiculous thing was over."  

All in all, Arum sounded like someone who knew nothing about pro wrestling and got in over his head with the whole thing.

 

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On 6/18/2017 at 11:58 AM, cwoy2j said:

I've been on a big Flair 87-90 kick lately. Kinda weird b/c he's already accepted as an all-time great in the ring so it's easy to gloss over just how good he was. He really was awesome at being a dick when going after a guy's knee. Letting them get comebacks and then just kicking their leg from under their leg (tm Owen Hart). I rewatched a couple of draws he had with WIndham (the Worldwide match and a couple others) and the way he sold getting put in a headlock was amazing to me. They made restholds look like actual moves that were designed to wear a guy down. It wasn't just a lazy "slap on a chinlock and sit there" sort of thing. Windham would put him in a headlock and they'd go through a series of reversals and pinfalls off it. Actually working. That's the sort of stuff I love.

On a similar note, I've been watching quite a bit of 92-93 Flair lately, and what struck me was the quality of his arm work. Dude could work an arm like an Anderson when he wanted to, which makes sense since they were kayfabe cousins.

Also, 1993 Rick Rude is due for a re-evaluation. Conventional wisdom states that he fell off a cliff after his neck injury, but I'm not finding that to be the case at all. In particular, the Iron Man match with Dustin Rhodes has been unfairly maligned.

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I said months ago that all around that Flair was my 1999. In ring he had to rely on schtick, but if it works, it works. 

No matter how buddy buddy everybody acts, WCW spent the year trying to kill him off and he only got more over. 

I agree totally about 80's Flair as good as people say he is, he is even better. I really enjoyed that period in late 88/early 89 when he got really fired up. 

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