Brysynner Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 2 minutes ago, HumanChessgame said: Bryan and Shane are butthurt about the outcome, but based on the rules you quoted what happened was technically legal. She gets forced to put the briefcase on the line in a 5 way match on Tuesday maybe? Bryan spent most of his run at Smackdown GM butthurt about the Miz winning by technically legal means and forced him to compete against the same people over and over again till they eventually beat The Miz. So this is 100% in character for him to force Carmella to defend her briefcase because he doesn't like the outcome. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Trump Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 As far as I'm concerned if the Women's Revolution is truly about equality - then it is absolutely perfectly fine for a heel male manager to cheat to help his female win a match, just as it would always be perfectly fine for a heel female manager to cheat to help her man win a match. Carmella is just as entitled to that kind of heat as a man would be. Also, the whole business is a work of fiction. We are not talking about Jeannette Rankin or Amelia Earhart here. I don't think many Women's Studies classes are discussing things like Hell in a Cell and Money in the Bank ladder matches. Anyone legitimately upset about that finish based on gender equality issues needs to give their head a shake. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AxB Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 Ah yes, the old 'complaining about sexism is sexist' trope. Your Mum must be so proud of you. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 I don't really have a problem with the execution of the finish, but I really wish they wouldn't have done it in the very first ever Womens MITB. Ellsworth just yanking Becky down and holding onto her while Carmella grabs it herself would have worked just fine and accomplished the same thing. Now when they show the finish, it'll be of a dude handing the prize to a woman. Optics are important when WWE chooses to build and push their "Women's Revolution" in the public eye the way they often do. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Trump Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 11 minutes ago, AxB said: Ah yes, the old 'complaining about sexism is sexist' trope. Your Mum must be so proud of you. I am not trying to reduce it to that kind of argument at all. I am looking at it more from the storytelling perspective, the narrative. You know, antagonists, protagonists, all that. The fictional characters we are watching in that "Universe". I just see it more like Carmella using her male puppet to her advantage and don't see anything wrong with that from an equality standpoint in their storytelling. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 12 minutes ago, Jimmy Trump said: I am not trying to reduce it to that kind of argument at all. I am looking at it more from the storytelling perspective, the narrative. You know, antagonists, protagonists, all that. The fictional characters we are watching in that "Universe". I just see it more like Carmella using her male puppet to her advantage and don't see anything wrong with that from an equality standpoint in their storytelling. None of that matters when you take these people out of that Universe, put them next to Stephanie McMahon at an investors summit or some kind of Women's Empowerment seminar, and you've got Carmella on stage - who only got her spot on that stage because of some janky looking guy handed her that opportunity. Take yourself out of the bubble for a minute. The problem isn't a heel, cowardly Ellsworth helping a strong, manipulating Carmella - it's when you take these characters out of that world, present them as actual people and blur the lines between who they are in reality and who they are on TV, and still expect mainstream outlets and non-fans to buy into the "Women's Revolution" when someone who's going to be the Smackdown Live Womens Champion in the near future couldn't get it done without the help of a man. If we're going to talk about this within the confines of the "Universe" or "kayfabe", whatever - I would argue Carmella didn't order Ellsworth to interfere, he did that on his own. Which would actually make this easier to swallow if they addressed that on Tuesday and have her be furious with him for helping her and now everyone is doubting her and viewing the win as illegitimate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Lord Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 I know they don't have the guts to do it even though Stephanie claimed they would eventually start having characters like this, but considering all the jokes they make at Ellsworth expense James should come out as gender neutral. Maybe we could at least finally get that Becky/Ellsworth match they've been teasing forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odessasteps Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 Imagining Downtown Bruno as "Hervina" saying he identifies himself as female so he should be allowed to be women's champion. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Trump Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 At the end of the day we're all just marks watching the Muppet show. WWE knew they were booking a finish that would stir these discussions and here they are, based on Shane and Bryan's tweets, THAT'S THE ANGLE. From the Corporate perspective - the finish of the match does NOT matter. They still get to tout the elevation of the Women's Divisions, the first HITC, the first MITB, all that. Those company milestones stand regardless of the creative decisions executed within. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Lord Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 52 minutes ago, Jimmy Trump said: At the end of the day we're all just marks watching the Muppet show. WWE knew they were booking a finish that would stir these discussions and here they are, based on Shane and Bryan's tweets, THAT'S THE ANGLE. From the Corporate perspective - the finish of the match does NOT matter. They still get to tout the elevation of the Women's Divisions, the first HITC, the first MITB, all that. Those company milestones stand regardless of the creative decisions executed within. There was some interview with another former WWE writer and he said the WWE doesn't care about long term story telling anymore. They only want to create "moments" now. So we get the first of those matches. But it doesn't really matter what happened in it or what happens afterward. Just the moment we see on the tv is all that matters. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 3 hours ago, Casey said: I don't really have a problem with the execution of the finish, but I really wish they wouldn't have done it in the very first ever Womens MITB. Ellsworth just yanking Becky down and holding onto her while Carmella grabs it herself would have worked just fine and accomplished the same thing. Now when they show the finish, it'll be of a dude handing the prize to a woman. Optics are important when WWE chooses to build and push their "Women's Revolution" in the public eye the way they often do. You really don't think the same types would not be griping? Besides Becky would beat his brains in. Running and scurrying is all young James is good at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hail Sabin Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 You can make someone defend the MITB EDGE had to against Matt Hardy in a Loser leaves Raw Ladder match for the briefcase. My Guess is Shane/DBry make Carmella defend it Tuesday or the next week against the other 4 girls and maybe Lana. It is possible if Carmella gets to keep it Lana will do a run in to make sure she doesn't cash it in since she is pissed Carmella came out during her match and blames her for her loss to Naomi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIPPA Posted June 19, 2017 Author Share Posted June 19, 2017 Maybe Shane McMahon should have shown up for his own fucking show. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Natural Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 Skip the show then going by bad booking, finishes. I be like: Especially the Smackdown Live Women's Money in the Bank Ladder match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIPPA Posted June 19, 2017 Author Share Posted June 19, 2017 Ooof... I complained about JBL being on Talking Smack. I apologize. I didn't realize the other option was Booker 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsey Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 I'm a wrestling fan. I love it. I always have but I'd been avoiding the main brand PPVs and weekly tv like poison because, well... So, feeling guilty about avoiding the biggest wrestling company in the world, I take a few hours of my Father's Day to watch this show. Fuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuck With all of the awfulness that they could muster, they chose to plop a huge dollop of it right here. At least I went out to water the yard during the Orton match. Now then, with that said, Nak and AJ was electric. Give us those two at Summer Slam and all will be forgiven... Well...almost all. That show was pretty fucking awful. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 I have never really kept up with NJPW, so I never saw Nakamura, I watched him in NXT and while I saw talent, did not see the guy everyone was nuts over. But since he has debuted on the main roster he has been amazing. He is head and shoulders above everyone in ring work and charisma. The same goes for AJ Styles, but I have watched AJ Styles since I found NWC on some low power channel I found by accidentally flipping the dial. They made everyone else in the match look second rate. Boy I am done with Dolph, he use to have this great energy Now he doesn't try and he does not have the fundamentals to get by. Though I do enjoy watching him get hit with a ladder. Owens looks a lot better than he did as Universal Champion. He works a lot better as US champion than as top guy. I don't really know what Zayn is doing but he carried his end. I knew the winner was going to be Nakamura, Corbin or maybe Zayn since none of them were WWE champion before. I'm fine with Corbin winning, but I think Nakamura taking the case after dominating everyone would be a great moment. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 5 hours ago, Jimmy Trump said: WWE knew they were booking a finish that would stir these discussions ... I don't think they did. And that's the problem. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 I mean, as much as people make jokes about Vince being in a bubble in terms of pop culture, it's probably the same when it comes to social issues. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Natural Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 27 minutes ago, Victator said: I have never really kept up with NJPW, so I never saw Nakamura, I watched him in NXT and while I saw talent, did not see the guy everyone was nuts over. But since he has debuted on the main roster he has been amazing. He is head and shoulders above everyone in ring work and charisma. The same goes for AJ Styles, but I have watched AJ Styles since I found NWC on some low power channel I found by accidentally flipping the dial. They made everyone else in the match look second rate. Boy I am done with Dolph, he use to have this great energy Now he doesn't try and he does not have the fundamentals to get by. Though I do enjoy watching him get hit with a ladder. Owens looks a lot better than he did as Universal Champion. He works a lot better as US champion than as top guy. I don't really know what Zayn is doing but he carried his end. I knew the winner was going to be Nakamura, Corbin or maybe Zayn since none of them were WWE champion before. I'm fine with Corbin winning, but I think Nakamura taking the case after dominating everyone would be a great moment. If you want some Nakamura in NJPW recommendations, let us know. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamal Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 8 hours ago, Eivion said: Naomi vs. Lana was ok. Lana is definitely still green, but she shows potential. I think the finish was unnecessary. I would have preferred the tease to happen after Naomi won. This also showed Naomi's experience as she did a good job of leading Lana during that match. The two of them are good friends behind the scenes so I can imagine they got a kick out of all of this. I agree that the women's MITB match could have benefitted from a little more time. Tamina, in particular, got some good opportunities to shine, which was nice, and I dug the pre-match promo. But it felt like things were just getting good before the end. I'm waiting until Tuesday to see how the story develops but the ending did not get me too terribly upset. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Wilson Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 Has anyone mentioned yet how great it was that Orton dangerously dropped one of the Bollywood Boyz on the table again? I laughed. Takes a certain kind of crazy to intentionally do a spot like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nice Guy Eddie Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 17 minutes ago, Kevin Wilson said: Has anyone mentioned yet how great it was that Orton dangerously dropped one of the Bollywood Boyz on the table again? I laughed. Takes a certain kind of crazy to intentionally do a spot like that. Maybe that's the agreement; Randy agrees to job to Jinder as long as he can wrecklessly toss around the Bollywood Boyz. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIPPA Posted June 19, 2017 Author Share Posted June 19, 2017 The other thing that isn't being talked about is the logic that apparently you can just declare yourself the winner of a match and everyone just accepts it (ie: Ellsworth announcing Carmella the winner and the refs basically going "Oh... okay...") 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolfan in NYC Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 Well, JBL did say, they literally did nothing wrong. MitB is No DQ, and aside from the bad taste of a man being the catalyst to winning a historic women's match*, Carmella successfully retrieved the briefcase first and is thus the winner. Story-wise, if that's not the decision they're going with, a ref should have immediately said, "No. That's not right." --- * - I do need to point out, this was a dumb, dumb decision booking-wise. Not for the heel aspect at all, because genderless, this is a great, funny heel moment. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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