Twin Peaks

[Throat]

Frank is replacing Harry in real life!

[brocklock]

I think Forester's a much better actor than Ontkean, but Ontkean's presence was certainly missing the most out of the castmembers that weren't on The Return. Forester just seemed out of place at times and it's weird because I figured his type of nice guy presence would fit in well.

I tend to prefer Lynch's style to Frost's, so I ate this entire series up even if I had a couple problems. Finale definitely was meandering at times although I liked it far more the second time I watched it. I didn't like Audrey's storyline at all and some of the repeated comedic bits like Jerry Horne being lost in the woods or Dr. Amp fell flat the more they showed them. I still loved most of this series and will rewatch it again and again. 

One thing that will probably get lost in how polarizing this show has been is how good Kyle McLaughlin was at essentially playing four different characters (Dale, Mr. C, Dougie Jones, and the weird mix of all of them in the last episode). I'm hoping at least for an emmy nomination, but I think the tepid response to the finale probably will lead to his work getting passed over.

 

[TheVileOne]

I'd have been on board with an Emmy nomination for MacLachlan if not for how bad the second half of this season was.  

[Throat]

MacLachlan's acting was pretty limited this season. Sure, he played multiple versions of the character, but one was a barely functional imbecile, one was completely devoid of emotion and regular Cooper was barely in it. It was mostly just lots of blank-faced staring. I could see him winning a staring contest, but not an Emmy.

[TheVileOne]

Also Julee Cruise is trashing David Lynch on Facebook for being treated poorly by him.

[Throat]

She kind of sounds like a nut in those posts.

https://www.alternativenation.net/twin-peaks-julee-cruise-calls-finale-slap-face-emperor-david-lynch/

As I was reading that, The World Spins started playing on WFMU. Spooky.

[TheVileOne]

I acknowledge she could be off her rocker and pulling a J. Michael Anderson here.  One commenter did make a good point.  Lynch basically supplanted the Dale Cooper role in this season.  I talked to another fan who said Lynch definitely didn't need to be in the show as much as he did.  I actually enjoy Lynch's performance as Gordon Cole, but compared to how much we got of Cole to how much we actually got of Cooper, yeah it's a valid point.

I find it hard to believe Ontkean wouldn't have come back as Harry Truman even if he was "retired."  A lot of the actors in this film were basically retired or hadn't worked in years.  I'm sure he could've been persuaded.  The truth is Lynch didn't want him back and destroyed his character to bring in Forrester.  

Can anyone justify the Audrey Horne subplot at all?  Honestly, the show is more effective if it's gone.  What purpose does it serve within the show?  Nothing there connected back with the series at large.  There's no payoff with her son or her other family members.  

EDIT:

I also fully acknowledge that the rage and anger I feel over the finale on some level could be actually what David Lynch wants.  

[John from Cincinnati]

That was more difficult to digest than a deep-fried handgun. 

[Matthew]

http://www.indiewire.com/2017/09/twin-peaks-ending-explained-answers-part-18-finale-david-lynch-1201872863/

Gonna have to rewatch but I think I loved the finale. Can't stop thinking about it anyways, article I've linked is a nice summation for those who want it.

[Throat]

36 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

I acknowledge she could be off her rocker and pulling a J. Michael Anderson here.  One commenter did make a good point.  Lynch basically supplanted the Dale Cooper role in this season.  I talked to another fan who said Lynch definitely didn't need to be in the show as much as he did.  I actually enjoy Lynch's performance as Gordon Cole, but compared to how much we got of Cole to how much we actually got of Cooper, yeah it's a valid point.

I find it hard to believe Ontkean wouldn't have come back as Harry Truman even if he was "retired."  A lot of the actors in this film were basically retired or hadn't worked in years.  I'm sure he could've been persuaded.  The truth is Lynch didn't want him back and destroyed his character to bring in Forrester.  

Can anyone justify the Audrey Horne subplot at all?  Honestly, the show is more effective if it's gone.  What purpose does it serve within the show?  Nothing there connected back with the series at large.  There's no payoff with her son or her other family members.  

EDIT:

I also fully acknowledge that the rage and anger I feel over the finale on some level could be actually what David Lynch wants.  

At least Cruise hasn't accused Lynch of murder yet.

That really is a good point about Cole. Lynch downgraded Cooper to a mental defective and upgraded Cole to the show's top FBI guy. He's also a ladies' man who just assured us last night that his dick still gets hard for all the young women desperate to fuck him despite being in his 70s. I suppose this has been a wish fulfillment role for him ever since he had himself kissing Madchen Amick, but it seemed worse this time with him being much more prominent.

Ontkean was asking for help finding the jacket he wore on Twin Peaks shortly after the revival was announced. He even said he only needed to borrow it for three weeks. Sure as hell sounded like he was ready to return. I don't think there's been any word from him about TP since, though. I wonder what happened. http://welcometotwinpeaks.com/news/michael-ontkean-in-search-of-sheriff-truman-jacket/

[TheVileOne]

He probably read the script and did this.  Or he asked Lynch some questions and Lynch fired him and replaced him with Forrester.

[BurningBeard]

10 hours ago, Throat said:

MacLachlan's acting was pretty limited this season. Sure, he played multiple versions of the character, but one was a barely functional imbecile, one was completely devoid of emotion and regular Cooper was barely in it. It was mostly just lots of blank-faced staring. I could see him winning a staring contest, but not an Emmy.

And you think that's 'limited acting'? Jesus.

More fool me for coming to a wrestling forum and expecting any nuanced discussion regarding Twin Peaks. Some serious knee-jerk wah-wahs going on here.

What I got stuck on last night - Judy plucking Laura out of timelines. I guess because of the presentation, you automatically think linear. Is it safe to assume that when she was plucked from the red room in the first episode it was because she disappeared when Cooper stopped her murder? And she was placed in the Richard and Linda timeline? Is Judy forever trying to surpress/corrupt Laura's goodness and aura and that's why Sarah/Mother went crazy attacking her picture because she'd been saved? 

And Julee Cruise is a full on loon, I wouldn't put any stock in anything she says. She regularly slags Lynch and Badalamenti off then taken the payday every single time because she's bitter her 'fame' is wrapped up in a TV show.

[sevendaughters]

17 hours ago, Horton Hears a Wooo!!! said:

I too felt something: moderate irritation over the time I invested in this show.

I dunno.  i was a big Lynch fan 20 years ago.  Now it feels like an "emperor has no clothes' sort of thing where Lynch can film literally anything and people will praise it and look for the deeper meanings because it's David Lynch.  I don't really need or want every tv show to explain everything to me at the end of the season, and tie all the answers up with a nice bow, but I do want a strong narrative, internal logic, a sense of action and consequence.  I'm not really into weirdness for the sake of weirdness or shock endings that make no sense and change the game because those things are too easy.  It's a lot easier to be funny or shocking when you don't have to play within a narrative framework and are just throwing disjoined scenes up on the screen for your fans to ohhh and ahhh over.  It's a lot harder when you have to be consistent with that scene you did last week or explain the motivation or actually tell a satisfying story.  I feel like Lynch gives lots of great set pieces, but has forgotten how to tell a conventional narrative. 

I respectfully disagree. But I'm not the kind of person who thinks that not going along with Lynch into his outer fantasies renders you an idiot. I'm a film academic (dodges rotten egg) and there are people (like one of my bosses) that have tenure and who have written dense tomes on maddeningly obscure bits of cinema who are just not on board with what they see as fancy-ass art bullshit. I just disagree.

I particularly disagree on internal logic. Now I know there's a difference between the internal logic of a constructed world like, to use a touchstone we're all familiar with - pro-wrestling - and the internal logic of the auteur. This is kind of like knowing the difference between "a pro-wrestling thing" and "a Vince thing". The worlds are co-morbid, co-existing mostly harmoniously until the generic conventions of the former chime with the personal vision of the latter. So if you're expecting something to make sense like idk not booking Roman Reigns so hot because the crowd don't like him much actually (internal logic to wrestling convention) then once you're on board with the auteur you get used to them upending it (booking him hot regardless bcs big sexy Samoan) and carrying on lapping up whatever they offer despite the people who got off the bus a while back going "what the fuck is this shit?"

So if there's one thing Lynch can't be pulled up on, unlike so many other shows where multiple writers and networks running interference is nakedly visible, it is not pursuing the thing that makes sense to him regardless of how it makes anyone else feel. So if people are out on Vince I am like "well fair fucks" and pretty much the same for Lynch (though I really think he's a sincerist at heart, I do not think he is a troll or fucking with anyone ever). And I think he's successfully played with multiple identities for the last 25 years to the point where you just get on board or you're going to be disappointed.

I take the point on conventional narratives and it was never really his strong point. I expect he'd argue the same. His most narratively sound film, The Straight Story, is able to be so because it is the linear progress of one man over a short time frame and features very little - if any - sideroads or narrative complications. I also think he did a good job in this series of offering up a vast and baffling suite of disjointed geographies and persons and connecting them bit by bit, even if some were red herrings, so we got the sense it was narrowing and closing and eventually pinpointing back on where it all began over a number of episodes. To pull the rug from under that in the latter half of 17 and all of 18...well, that is just going to piss people off. You have to accept it, fan or not.

On reflection I do think some critics have a point regarding the picking up and putting down of certain characters, characters who were never highly developed anyway, to serve obtuse purposes; pretty much all of the Hornes, the character played by Balthazar Getty that I was sure was going to be a Hank-type, Becky & Stephen, etc. I could go on.

But to balance that I thought the trio of Gordon, Albert, and Tammy was excellent - fuck if it was egotistic that Lynch gave himself a bigger role. Cole was always one of the best walk-ons in S2 and the film. And once I had a handle on Dougie and read him as a Chance Gardener type, I just knew he would never be in any danger and would blissfully navigate everything and it all just became incredibly joyful to me. I never saw as a 'stumbling' character at all, rather a distillation of the purity of Cooper. I also think some of the worst criticism of Dougie (not here) borders on disablism, which is a constant theme in Twin Peaks too, btw (Leo, Elaine Hayward, Nadine, etc.)

I've gone on way longer than I expected here, sorry. Lynch isn't even one of my total favourites so I'm not a slam dunk on him at all times (I don't really like Mulholland Drive, Rabbits, or On The Air). But I've watched a lot of television. I used to have a night job where I could basically watch TV for 12hrs a night (worse than it sounds!) and as such I've seen pretty much every rated or semi-rated longform drama from the period 1998 to 2011.

So it was just nice to see the new Twin Peaks take a left-turn against its own conventions, because so many quirky and criminal dramas that came after Twin Peaks borrowed so heavily from it that its own rhythms and devices felt a bit...ordinary. I enjoyed it a lot (except one of the later episodes, the first one with Audrey, that was like a weird hell version of this series) and think it is a worthy cap to the original stuff that powers past the dross in series 2 and brings us somewhere new and interesting and unforeseen.

[Throat]

7 hours ago, CreativeControl said:

And you think that's 'limited acting'? Jesus.

More fool me for coming to a wrestling forum and expecting any nuanced discussion regarding Twin Peaks. Some serious knee-jerk wah-wahs going on here.

Aw, yeah, that stereotype that all wrestling fans are dumb hicks is certainly true. Why are you here then?

People are impressed that MacLachlan played multiple roles, but it's like they're not considering what those roles involved. I'm not saying MacLachlan isn't a good actor. I just don't think the two characters we spent the bulk of the season with gave him much opportunity to do anything award-worthy. It's not his fault. It's what he was given. He did well within those constraints, but there's nothing particularly remarkable about it.

[Jiji]

I thought playing Dougie took a lot of skill because he showed moments of frustration and sorrow within the constraints of the Dougie character. He did excellent showing there was a hint of Cooper trapped in there somewhere. A lot of it was a 1000 mile stare but there were key exceptions. 

[Throat]

I agree with that. He made the best of it. I just think it was too low-key of a role for him to get any award consideration.

.

[Throat]

It seems Cruise is upset about her performance being cut short at the end of ep 17. Maybe she was thinking "Lynch showed a guy sweeping a floor for ten minutes, but didn't have time for my entire song?!" A petty reason to burn that bridge. She's making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Which I admit I've been doing here with all my griping since the finale. I've had a lot or problems with this season, obviously, but I liked it as a whole. It was a flawed but welcome return. The original series has such a fervent fan base that's been dissecting it for over 25 years. Expectations were sky high for a lot of fans, including me, and I don't think there was any way it could've lived up to that. It was a unique situation. I don't imagine the Full House revival was this polarizing.

Does anyone think this ending calls for a fourth season? Or are you happy with this being the last we see of Twin Peaks?

[maciej]

35 minutes ago, Throat said:

Does anyone think this ending calls for a fourth season? Or are you happy with this being the last we see of Twin Peaks?

 I'm not sure that continuing after that loopy ending would make much sense (though maybe Cooper is fated to continue 'til infinity and not-continuing would make just as little sense), but I loved The Return enough that if Lynch announced another season tomorrow I would be nothing but joyous.

 

[sevendaughters]

I think I could go for basically Fire Walk 2. The cast has slimmed down through death either real or in story. I'd like to know where Chet Desmond is and Audrey get the send off the character deserved, however opaquely. 

[Throat]

I'd certainly prefer a two-hour movie over another 18 hours. I think that was way too much time.

Maybe Audrey and all the other characters left hanging at the end of this season will find some resolution in Mark Frost's upcoming book, but I sure as hell would've rather seen it than read about it.

[Throat]

I highly recommend listening to Entertainment Weekly's Twin Peaks podcast. I checked out a few different podcasts about the show at the beginning of the season, and this was the only one worth sticking with. Their analysis of the finale made me reconsider a lot of what I thought. It quelled my anger over the ending. Now I'm just really bummed out about it.

https://art19.com/shows/twin-peaks-podcast

The finale episode is quite long at 3 1/2 hours, but it's well worth it. Plus they put up an interview with MacLachlan today where he offers his interpretation of the ending.

[Jiji]

Good Lord, the one host of that podcast... His voice is so annoying. Nobody talks like that ffs.

[BurningBeard]

16 hours ago, Throat said:

Aw, yeah, that stereotype that all wrestling fans are dumb hicks is certainly true. Why are you here then?

People are impressed that MacLachlan played multiple roles, but it's like they're not considering what those roles involved. I'm not saying MacLachlan isn't a good actor. I just don't think the two characters we spent the bulk of the season with gave him much opportunity to do anything award-worthy. It's not his fault. It's what he was given. He did well within those constraints, but there's nothing particularly remarkable about it.

I think that's your own opinion talking rather than mine, my point was wrestling forum's are the home to knee-jerk complainers. I'm glad you have let your thoughts on the final ruminate though and you've reconsidered as a result of that podcast. Like I said, I found the final episode very galling in a lot of ways. There was just this sense of dread or melancholy to the whole final 30 minutes. I don’t know what to make of the paradox of undoing a 25 year old murder, I just know it all ends in a blood curdling and mysterious scream and yeah, I'm bummed out about it too.

Cooper seemed like he knew what to do but once in Odessa it became apparent to me that he was waaaaaay out of his depth. Coop’s mission was to destroy the evil (Judy). Laura is the key to that happening. Coop seems to understand more about Judy than has been let on previously (as evidenced by what Cole said), so he knows that he needs to bring her to confront Sarah Palmer, who is currently hosting Judy. He prevents Laura from dying (one plan scuppered) only for her to be plucked off the board like a chess piece as a reset and have to go and find her in this alternate realm, takes her to the Palmer house only to find out that UH OH, Judy is one step ahead again and Mrs Chalfont bought the house and Sarah Palmer has been whisked away (another plan scuppered). But with Carrie 'awake' now ala Dougie/Cooper, maybe we continue and there is hope that evil will be defeated. Or maybe this just goes on forever which is why I think the Phillip Jeffries scene really needs a closer reading too. It's certainly implied by the infinity symbol that this goes on forever.

What was the significance of Cooper needing to know the year for what he was doing to work? Weirder still, and something a lot of people seem to be sleeping on, is the Diane seeing herself at the motel AND THEN the fact that the next morning the motel has changed as has the car. Like I said, those things in particular seemed very Lost Highway and like a spanner was thrown in the works by whatever force they were trying to circumvent.

[Throat]

Well, I don't think ALL wrestling fans are dumb. I just misinterpreted what you said.

Cooper was definitely out of his depth. Even Mr. C was. It seems he was just a pawn the entire time. The Fireman got all of the pieces moving and eventually placed them in Frank Truman's office to defeat Mr. C and BOB. In retrospect, that makes the big bad of this season seem like a hapless dope. One set of coordinates would've killed him instantly, but he had his son take his place. The other set put him right where he needed to be to be taken down by the people of Twin Peaks, all of whom had been manipulated so that they'd be there to play their parts.

Cooper's mission was doomed as well. He went back to save Laura on the night of her murder, but if she was once a force of good who could defeat Judy, she was far from that then. She had been ruined by years of abuse at the hands of her BOB-possessed father. As she tells James, "Your Laura disappeared. It's just me now." At that point in her life, she had to die to escape being possessed by BOB herself. I think no matter what Cooper did, she would've ended up dying in that timeline, just not on that night.

Or is she completely removed from that timeline? Doesn't that then mean that the Twin Peaks we know becomes some other Twin Peaks? Cooper never ends up in the town without Laura's murder to investigate, so wouldn't that erase basically everything we've seen Cooper do? Or is he a sort of Lodge entity himself now and immune to the repercussions of him fucking with the timeline? In a Twin Peaks without Laura's death, Leland is still there inhabited by BOB. The town is still corrupt in so many other ways. There's no reason for Cooper to show up, and I think his presence made the town a better place. Criminal scumbag Jean Renault once told him the opposite, which confirms it to be true. So Twin Peaks is still a hellhole beneath the surface of a quaint small town, and perhaps worse off than it was before Cooper started screwing with the timeline. Or are we supposed to believe that 1989 Laura defeating Judy in the present day would retroactively eliminate BOB and all the evils that ever plagued the town? Time travel makes my head spin.

What bums me out the most about all of this is that Cooper lost 25 years of his life. He finally gets out, and he's trapped in this Dougie persona. I imagine it was frustrating not being able to be himself, but he did get a taste of a happy suburban life with a loving wife and son, which is perhaps something he once hoped to have someday way back before his Lodge days. But that's not his life and he can't stay. He's got a mission, and that mission leads to him being trapped again in a different way. He's once again not quite himself, and he's in this alternate world where things are being manipulated by Judy to thwart his plans. I think Jeffries' infinity symbol does imply that this will go on forever. Maybe he'll keep getting more chances to fix things in different timelines, but I doubt he'll ever pull it off. I have no doubt he'll keep trying because that's just who he is. And why does Cooper deserve to be caught in this loop of failure? He was the most fundamentally good character in the entire series, and he's been thoroughly fucked over. I get that the heroes don't always win, but did he have to fail this miserably? What a drag.

One of the guys on that podcast had an interesting interpretation of Cooper's last line that I agree with. I don't think he's confused about what year he was taken to in this alternate timeline. I think it's just dawning on him how much of his life that he's lost.

[BurningBeard]

Yeah that was essentially my reading of it. I'm not subscribing to the alternate timelines/alternate dimension bullshit flying around. It's all one world, but by Cooper rescuing Laura there is no murder investigation, no Dale Cooper in Twin Peaks, no being trapped in the lodge etc etc which is why I think that weird overlay effect started like Cooper had 'dreamed' the whole thing in the Red Room and the statement he echoes from Phillip Jeffries about how "We live inside a dream". It undid everything and Cooper is now this ethereal Phillip Jeffries-esque character removed from it all while Laura is snatched away.

I'm starting to think the whole Dougie plot was a bit of coda for the series as I think there's only one Laura - uniquely created by the Fireman - and when she was picked up and transplanted into Odessa, whenever or by whoever it was, she restarted ala Cooper as Dougie and had to begin again. Visiting the horror home of her abuse was Laura's fork-in-the-socket moment. Where it goes from there is anybody's guess and why I'm in two minds about whether I'd like them to continue the story.

14 hours ago, Throat said:

One of the guys on that podcast had an interesting interpretation of Cooper's last line that I agree with. I don't think he's confused about what year he was taken to in this alternate timeline. I think it's just dawning on him how much of his life that he's lost.

And isn't that a frightening thought