Daniel Bryan vs. John Cena and Brock Lesnar vs. CM Punk at SummerSlam 2013. Which is best?

[The Natural]

Pleased at Bryan vs. Cena's big poll lead and thanks for the replies to the topic.

[BurningBeard]

Wait. Punk was coming off the longest title reign in recent history, had stood toe-to-toe with the Deadman, and yet he wasn't a 'credible' threat to Brock? Gimme a break.

For sheer emotion the DB/Cena match gets the nod from me, but that Punk/Brock match was really smartly laid-out and the build-up was great

[Matt D]

16 minutes ago, CreativeControl said:

Wait. Punk was coming off the longest title reign in recent history, had stood toe-to-toe with the Deadman, and yet he wasn't a 'credible' threat to Brock? Gimme a break.

Absolutely. And Brock had come off of losing to Cena and an interminable feud with Hunter (including LOSING to him at Mania in a match where he wasn't protected well at all). This wasn't post-WM 30 (and far, far more important, post Summerslam vs Cena) Brock yet. Like I said. If you didn't believe Punk could face off against Brock, the problem is with you and you're a crummy wrestling fan.  

[tbarrie]

41 minutes ago, CreativeControl said:

Wait. Punk was coming off the longest title reign in recent history, had stood toe-to-toe with the Deadman, and yet he wasn't a 'credible' threat to Brock?

To be fair, he wasn't credible against the Undertaker either.

[BurningBeard]

We were deep into the streak then so, really, was anyone at the time? The only person I actively want to beat Taker and end the streak was Orton when he was running the Legend Killer gimmick (hindsight being what it is thank god he didn't)

[The Natural]

1 hour ago, Matt D said:

Absolutely. And Brock had come off of losing to Cena and an interminable feud with Hunter (including LOSING to him at Mania in a match where he wasn't protected well at all). This wasn't post-WM 30 (and far, far more important, post Summerslam vs Cena) Brock yet. Like I said. If you didn't believe Punk could face off against Brock, the problem is with you and you're a crummy wrestling fan.  

God, the Triple H vs. Brock Lesnar WrestleMania XXIX match was horrible. One of the worst matches in both men's careers.

[(BP)]

11 hours ago, The Unholy Dragon said:

Doesn't help that Brock serving as a wall for Heyman ended up leading to Ryback-Punk mk. II somehow thus putting the biggest match first and having it mean nothing much.

On top of everything else, I'm sure Punk was pissed that they wouldn't use one of Brock's limited dates to give him the win back in the cell for the blowoff. 

23 minutes ago, The Natural said:

God, the Triple H vs. Brock Lesnar WrestleMania XXIX match was horrible. One of the worst matches in both men's careers.

I remember their Summerslam match not being bad, mostly because it told a pretty good story of Hunter targeting Brock's abdomen after his bout with diverticulitis. The Mania match is remarkably bad. I don't know if I ever saw the cage match blowoff, but I remember hearing it was decent. 

[The Natural]

21 minutes ago, (BP) said:

On top of everything else, I'm sure Punk was pissed that they wouldn't use one of Brock's limited dates to give him the win back in the cell for the blowoff. 

I remember their Summerslam match not being bad, mostly because it told a pretty good story of Hunter targeting Brock's abdomen after his bout with diverticulitis. The Mania match is remarkably bad. I don't know if I ever saw the cage match blowoff, but I remember hearing it was decent. 

SummerSlam 2013 was decent, Extreme Rules 2013 was the best of the three bouts. The 'Mania XXIX match is dire. I think, @Brian Fowler attended that WrestleMania.

[Marty Sugar]

 

14 hours ago, The Natural said:

Pleased at Bryan vs. Cena's big poll lead and thanks for the replies to the topic.

The actual replies for both sides are solid. The blatant trolling was a bit much.

[Go2Sleep]

On 5/9/2017 at 4:47 PM, Matt D said:

Also, I love the "set up a year of stories" bit. It set up a year of terrible repetitive, illogical storytelling that we all bitched about week in and week out for good reason. WWE was dragged kicking and screaming into giving us a happy ending. You guys just ended up with Stockholm Syndrome. Again.

Yeah, people seem to have some really bad memories here. The good thing is this iteration of the board goes back to July 2013, and I would suggest to anyone who thinks this match was the start of a great angle to revisit the threads for those horrible ppvs from September to December, and that hilarious second-run Batista re-cap thread someone compiled.

No one liked WWE between Summer Slam 2013 and Mania 30, and for good reason.

[The Unholy Dragon]

I mean, I'd argue the Elimination Chamber preceding Mania XXX is one of the best EC matches ever and there's great stuff sprinkled in there, but on the whole the period was super frustrating.

That said, hindsight helps a lot. At the time we felt Bryan would never get that babyface payoff and Mania XXX was a great catharsis. We know that's not the original plan but hey, it's what we got.

[Matt D]

6 minutes ago, The Unholy Dragon said:

I mean, I'd argue the Elimination Chamber preceding Mania XXX is one of the best EC matches ever and there's great stuff sprinkled in there, but on the whole the period was super frustrating.

That said, hindsight helps a lot. At the time we felt Bryan would never get that babyface payoff and Mania XXX was a great catharsis. We know that's not the original plan but hey, it's what we got.

And we got to have it for a couple of weeks. Man, Mania XXX was nice. Hogan flubbing things. Cesaro winning. Bryan. The Shield having babyface momentum. Brock getting an aura (though it'd be Summerslam, when he was supposed to kill Bryan anyway that he'd really get it).

[John from Cincinnati]

People are advocating shorter Lesnar matches where he doesn't give much up and kills the other guys? After the fuckery with Ambrose and Orton last year? Hard pass. 

When I watched the show live, Punk-Lesnar felt like an epic while Bryan-Cena felt like another Cena match, albeit a very good one. The slap exchange in Cena-Bryan was the best moment in either match, but as a whole I got more out of the Punk-Lesnar brawl. 

It should be kept in mind that aside from the Cena match at Extreme Rules the previous year, Lesnar had been asked to slum it with Hunter for three straight matches and that shit cooled him right off. So a big schmoz with a guy like Punk, who the crowd was actually invested in, was welcome. The guy who said it felt like a Raw match must have a different experience than I do watching Raw. This one felt special. The Heyman-Punk story didn't go anywhere great after this, but this made for a fun night. 

I'll abstain from voting for now though. Maybe go back and rewatch. It should be noted that my opinions on all of the guys in this discussion not named Daniel Bryan have soured a bit in the years subsequent to this. Of course the farther back I go in Cena's catalogue, the more I enjoy him. 

Cheers to those praising Christian vs Del Rio. 

[Matt D]

Oh geez. I just went back and looked at some of our threads from Fall 2013. I had totally forgotten about them trying to move (and partially succeeding until the actual match was a stinker) the YES! chant off of Bryan and onto Big Show.

[Go2Sleep]

On 5/12/2017 at 2:40 PM, Matt D said:

Oh geez. I just went back and looked at some of our threads from Fall 2013. I had totally forgotten about them trying to move (and partially succeeding until the actual match was a stinker) the YES! chant off of Bryan and onto Big Show.

Don't forget HHH buying the mortgage on Show's house and Show crying every other week.

Meanwhile Bryan got screwed out of 3 straight title matches with a reversed decision on Armstrong's fast count, a no contest with Big Show interference, and getting turned on by Shawn Michaels for... reasons. Then he went on to lose to the Wyatt Family a bunch, but at least there were some good matches in there.

[cwoy2j]

Brock didn't need Heyman to win that match against Punk. Punk hit the GTS and covered Brock. Heyman came in to interrupt the count but I thought it was pretty clear that Brock still kicked out at 2. Even if Heyman didn't come in, Brock was still going to get out of that situation.

[Firebreaker Chip]

On 09/05/2017 at 4:03 PM, The Natural said:

I was sat open mouthed to the Cena/Bryan finish, clean pin with a brutal running knee strike.

As much as that was the single most brutal one he ever hit, it had an an interesting dynamic because he'd never used it before so a lot of the crowd didn't immediately react to it as the scary deathblow it was

Vividly remember watching it at the time and as the ref's hand hit 2 being like "oh holy shit that's the finish isn't it"

I liked how over the preceding couple of weeks, Bryan sneaking out the win with a small package had almost booked itself as the 100% obvious finish, and that they then did a false finish off that and put him over 100% more decisively

watching the Orton MITB cash-in still kind of bums me out restrospectively! Death to Money in the Bank imo

[Brian Fowler]

Yeah, amazing match, jaw dropping finish, and it took them literally less than five minutes to fuck it all up.

[Casey]

On 5/9/2017 at 0:38 PM, Marty Sugar said:

Punk/Lesnar annoyed me because they tried to make you believe that Punk could go 25 minutes with Lesnar. That's ridiculous.

I get wanting to make Punk look valiant in the face of certain death...but 25 fucking minutes? Get real. 11 minutes, tops. Let him hit the GTS and maybe even get a lucky submission applied, but taking a beating from Lesnar for 25 minutes is ridiculous for 99% of the WWE roster...then, now and forever.

Do you believe Triple H should have went 20+ minutes with Lesnar, twice, at two consecutive PPVs? What about 18 minutes at SummerSlam 2012, in a No DQ match no less? Cena lasted a minute less than that 4 months earlier, in (basically) the same match type. Why is it okay for Triple H and Cena to last that long, but CM Punk, coming off the longest title reign in the modern era, should only last 10+ minutes?

Is it because those two are his size and look like credible threats, and Punk is smaller than all of them so, within kayfabe, he shouldn't be able to beat or last that long with a monster like Brock Lesnar?

I'm just asking questions here. Just because a guy is smaller, doesn't mean he's the weaker link in the match. It's not professional wrestling, but I think the Gracie's proved that in the first few UFC PPVs. I never had a problem with Punk being booked to survive a 25 minute beating from Lesnar, but it's a complaint I've seen before (and not just on this site).

[joseph2112]

I think the main answer to this question is that the tried and true HHH formula for a match is figure out the optimum length for  a match and double it. 

Edit to add: I took the DB/Cena match because what it ended up giving us. Even though it was all bass-ackwards it ended up with the correct, amazing outcome. And of course they were well on their way to fucking it up, but at least we got something tremendous before the fuck up.

[Marty Sugar]

7 hours ago, Casey said:

Do you believe Triple H should have went 20+ minutes with Lesnar, twice, at two consecutive PPVs? What about 18 minutes at SummerSlam 2012, in a No DQ match no less? Cena lasted a minute less than that 4 months earlier, in (basically) the same match type. Why is it okay for Triple H and Cena to last that long, but CM Punk, coming off the longest title reign in the modern era, should only last 10+ minutes?

Is it because those two are his size and look like credible threats, and Punk is smaller than all of them so, within kayfabe, he shouldn't be able to beat or last that long with a monster like Brock Lesnar?

I'm just asking questions here. Just because a guy is smaller, doesn't mean he's the weaker link in the match. It's not professional wrestling, but I think the Gracie's proved that in the first few UFC PPVs. I never had a problem with Punk being booked to survive a 25 minute beating from Lesnar, but it's a complaint I've seen before (and not just on this site).

Where did I say anything about Triple H vs. Brock? Where did I say anything about Cena vs. Brock? Where did I say anything about size being a factor?

If it was a Gracie situation, where Punk was some mat technician and could tie Brock up and counter all that strength...I could buy that. Punk never showed any serious MMA skills: not in the WWE, and definitely not when he stepped into the UFC

I would've bought Bryan/Lesnar because we KNOW Daniel can go to the mat and take a big man down.

[Matt D]

Credibility, thy name is beating Mark Henry in a no DQ match:

[Overly Critical Man]

20 minutes ago, Matt D said:

Credibility, thy name is beating Mark Henry in a no DQ match:

Yeah, that was bullshit. Mark should've tossed him into the dimension he sent the cameraman to.

 

44 minutes ago, Marty Sugar said:

I would've bought Bryan/Lesnar because we KNOW Daniel can go to the mat and take a big man down.

It's a slightly bigger stretch when he's trying it on an NCAA freestyle wrestling champion who was also an MMA champion and therefore the single most complete killing machine in professional wrestling history. In that case, Daniel taking the same beating Cena did would be justified.  

[Marty Sugar]

This thread reminds me of a guy I used to work with, who was the biggest CM Punk fan that he couldn't see the forest for the trees. I kid, I kid.

Funny sidenote: I gave said wrestling coworker a tryout and when he couldn't handle it he decided that "wrestling was bullshit," and used Punk losing the title to The Rock to give up on wrestling for good.

[cwoy2j]

I can buy damn near anything in wrestling as long as it's presented logically. The match was structured where anytime there was any sort of even playing field, Brock was killing Punk. Punk had always been presented as a scrappy, never say die guy who had just come off a long title run and had beaten John Cena and stood toe to toe with The Undertaker yet the only time he got any advantage on Lesnar was when he (Punk) got a hold of a weapon and took advantage of the No DQ stip. If they'd have been in a stand-up fight with Punk holding the advantage, I'd take issue and my disbelief wouldn't have been suspended but I thought they did a good job of structuring the match so that I could actually think that Punk had a chance.