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Okay, that is some really nice Hunter armor and that cloak is also pretty sweet.

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Ah, Big Fresh.  The man who started the original Destiny thread, posted about a million times, and then barely played the game when it came out.

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7 minutes ago, EVA said:

Ah, Big Fresh.  The man who started the original Destiny thread, posted about a million times, and then barely played the game when it came out.

He disappoints easily.  In retrospect, I think I maybe gave the game a better chance with me than I should have, but time investment will do things to your brain.

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I believe his words were something along the lines of "you're dumb if you don't preorder this game." I've never seen someone go "ooh! shiny quarter!" more than Big Fresh.

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I really don't know why JT keeps giving him run especially when he hates us and has visited the site like twice in the calendar year

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17 minutes ago, RIPPA said:

I really don't know why JT keeps giving him run especially when he hates us and has visited the site like twice in the calendar year

He's got no beef with me personally.  We talk all of the time.

I give him occasional run in the hope that one day he will screw his head on straight again.

Yes, I am naive and dumb.

19 minutes ago, Craig H said:

I believe his words were something along the lines of "you're dumb if you don't preorder this game." I've never seen someone go "ooh! shiny quarter!" more than Big Fresh.

No arguments here.  When Fresh would talk about the latest and greatest when we were all in a 360 Party, the rest of us would do this.:

and he'd immediately get bent out of shape.

For a guy that used to be a worker, he doesn't really know how to take a rib.

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I did skim the video, and I have to say, it is fascinating to watch someone who knows next to nothing about this game attempt to react to what he's seeing in real time.  

He's also baffled as to why the in-game LFG is such a big deal.  WHY WOULD EXPERIENCED PLAYERS WANT TO HELP INEXPERIENCED PLAYERS?  WHAT'S THE REWARD?  AND WHAT IF THE EXPERIENCED PLAYERS AREN'T NICE?  WHY ARE THEY TALKING SO MUCH ABOUT THIS?

Maybe if you had played more than half the campaign you'd know!

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19 minutes ago, EVA said:

He's also baffled as to why the in-game LFG is such a big deal.  WHY WOULD EXPERIENCED PLAYERS WANT TO HELP INEXPERIENCED PLAYERS?  WHAT'S THE REWARD?  AND WHAT IF THE EXPERIENCED PLAYERS AREN'T NICE?  WHY ARE THEY TALKING SO MUCH ABOUT THIS?

He actually brings up a fair point, actually. 

There will be no more Grimoire in D2 and Grimoire Score was the metric that players used to gauge skill, arbitrary that may have been.. 

If all of the matchmaking mechanics are now in the background, player gear will arguably become the new measuring stick that determines who will get to take part in high end raids and game events where matchmaking is left up to the players.

If you don't have the right junk equipped, LFG flags will not help you get into a raid group and how do you learn raid mechanics if you don't have the "right gear" to get you noticed by a raid party?

Lack of Matchmaking was a serious issue with D1 IMO and it looks like Bungie may just be perpetuating the sin here.

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I think you are misunderstanding how it works

My impression is it will work like pseudo match-making where and group will say "we need two people" open the spots up and they get autofilled by folks in a queue

Its not like you have to go through an interview process

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40 minutes ago, RIPPA said:

My impression is it will work like pseudo match-making where and group will say "we need two people" open the spots up and they get autofilled by folks in a queue

What's to keep a group from staying in orbit and continuing to accept and boot incoming players until they get one with the "right gear?"

Just having an LFG flag up does usually not guarantee that you''ll get into a group, so I am curious as to how D2's system will differ from other LFG systems where players still sit on their hands and wait to be noticed.

My view on humanity is pretty high, but I've got no faith that gamers will do the right thing when it comes to player inclusiveness nor do I have enough faith in Bungie to believe that their first solution will be the best one.

IMO Matchmaking should be wide open.  If you want to pick and choose who gets to be on your team, create a private lobby and invite friends and clan mates.

 

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In all my years of LFGing raids in Destiny, I don't think I've ever been part of a group that was checking grimoire scores.  It's always been about light level and gear.  Must be "x"-LL, have Gally, have Spindle, have Touch, have Dark Drinker, etc.

Honestly, I've seen way mode listings requiring you to have a certain emblem than a Grimoire score.

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Yeah - I hate fucking people but the Destiny community has been one of the better ones for folks finding sherpas etc...

And apparently you can set the modifiers (including things like "must have mic") before you open it up

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I think grimoire score is more of an indicator of time spent in the game than it is skill. Sure some of it is skill based, flawless and raid bosses, but you can still be carried through those encounters by people. I'm not sure what my score ended up being but i think the only ones i am missing are some of the crucible based ones since that was never a priority of mine.

I don't see in game LFG being any better/worse than going online. It'll just be more convenient. You can put all the requirements you like when you're after a few people but that still doesn't guarantee people who know what they are doing. It's definitely a better option than all out forced matchmaking like other activities have, Hopefully it will be faster than trying to go through a site as well. I've had a few raids where someones dropped out and it's taking 30 mins of messing about on the internet to fill a spot. Ideally this will speed the process along. 

I've not actually watched too much of the reveals for Destiny 2. I see a lot of people complaining it looks too much like Destiny but what were they expecting? Aside from shinier graphics it's not like they were going to completely reinvent the game. I'm not sold on the new arrangement for classing weapons. Lumping all of the special and heavy weapons into one category seems like it will limit a lot of play styles

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1 hour ago, RIPPA said:

Yeah - I hate fucking people but the Destiny community has been one of the better ones for folks finding sherpas etc...

We've also been a bit spoiled on the XBox side of the house because we've never really had to test the rando waters for sherpas since Mis and his friends have been there to provide raiding expertise.

1 hour ago, EVA said:

In all my years of LFGing raids in Destiny, I don't think I've ever been part of a group that was checking grimoire scores.  It's always been about light level and gear. 

Doesn't that kinda support Fresh's argument though?  If exclusionary metrics are still in place that do not compel cooperation between hardcores and causals, will an LFG flag really help?

Years of playing MMOs as a casual and hardcore tends to make me think "no."

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JT is probably one of 6 people that actually gives a shit about a Grimoire score. Until he mentioned it, I totally forgot about it. Even with vanilla Destiny, there were so many other meaningful stats to look at and on reddit or the other LFG websites for Destiny, no one cared about Grimoire.

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20 minutes ago, J.T. said:

We've also been a bit spoiled on the XBox side of the house because we've never really had to test the rando waters for sherpas since Mis and his friends have been there to provide raiding expertise.

Doesn't that kinda support Fresh's argument though?  If exclusionary metrics are still in place that do not compel cooperation between hardcores and causals, will an LFG flag really help?

Years of playing MMOs as a casual and hardcore tends to make me think "no."

 

Yeah, but you need to have a certain light level and gear for this shit though. Raids contain enough one shot type stuff to begin with. Dragging along someone who has no business of being in a raid should be prevented until you hit a certain point. And even then, the Destiny community was always cool about bringing someone along for the ride. I doubt that changes much with Destiny 2. Most of the time it seemed like the most important thing people cared about was that you had a mic. 

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17 minutes ago, Craig H said:

Yeah, but you need to have a certain light level and gear for this shit though. Raids contain enough one shot type stuff to begin with. Dragging along someone who has no business of being in a raid should be prevented until you hit a certain point. And even then, the Destiny community was always cool about bringing someone along for the ride. I doubt that changes much with Destiny 2. Most of the time it seemed like the most important thing people cared about was that you had a mic. 

In short, Fresh is somewhat accurate even in his abject pessimism.

There's no real incentive to improve cooperation between noobs and experienced players that an LFG flag will solve.  Destiny just happens to have the good fortune to have a really good tradition of raid guides.

The flaw in his logic is that he expects everyone to act like a dick no matter what game it is... Irony?  Probably so.

Would we be so complimentary about player mentoring  if we were talking about EVE Online community?  From my experience playing EVE, hell no..

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Of course not - but we aren't talking about EVE Online's toxic community

Just because the internet as a whole sucks doesn't mean pockets of it aren't good

And that is my problem with the logic used - since it was off base for this specific community

I have a lot - A LOT - of issues with Destiny and Bungie. Heck - I have a problem with the fact that they are insisting on doing matchmaking the "Bungie Way" just because they never want to give players exactly what they want.

But to basically be "Well this is gonna suck because people are terrible" when never being involved in the community (or the game for that matter) is an issue

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But we're not talking about EVE Online. LFG has always included prerequisites or some sort of interview/inspection process. You're always, to some extent, picking and choosing who gets to be a part of your team. If LFG were auto-matchmaking where you throw up your flag and someone can just click to join your group causing you to be locked into a raid then you're taking on too much risk for something that's too big of a time suck. And then no one wins. Not the lonely player looking for a group and not the group just looking for extra meat. For example, there's a kinda sorta LFG system in Dota. If me and 3 other buddies need just one more guy for ranked play, then we're taking on a ton of risk for bringing aboard someone who is a troll or worse. More often than not we'll just queue up for a match, but half the time that person goes AFK, abandons, trolls, or just plain sucks. It helps to at least take a quick look to see if the guy we're taking on doesn't have a history of abandoning or feeding.

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1 hour ago, RIPPA said:

Of course not - but we aren't talking about EVE Online's toxic community

Just because the internet as a whole sucks doesn't mean pockets of it aren't good

And that is my problem with the logic used - since it was off base for this specific community

I have a lot - A LOT - of issues with Destiny and Bungie. Heck - I have a problem with the fact that they are insisting on doing matchmaking the "Bungie Way" just because they never want to give players exactly what they want.

But to basically be "Well this is gonna suck because people are terrible" when never being involved in the community (or the game for that matter) is an issue

You're preaching to the choir, man. 

I know that it is cool to villify Fresh in absentia, but he's on point about the idea that an in game LFG flag is not a big deal if it is not coupled with serious improvements to matchmaking..

Admittedly, I don't really care for raiding but I was all in during Iron Banner time and the D2 mods for matchmaking would've been invaluable to me during that time. 

It would've been nice to be able to filter the PvP base for people with mics and comparable LL instead of praying that I was spared the task of carrying five mic-less sub 1.0 K/D players to victory. 

You've been there yourself.  It's not fun.

The problem with Fresh's logic is that his assumptions about the Destiny player base is wrong for the most part because as EVA says, he played for like a week and fled for the next new thing which I think was Evolve and that game blew chunks.

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47 minutes ago, Craig H said:

But we're not talking about EVE Online. LFG has always included prerequisites or some sort of interview/inspection process. You're always, to some extent, picking and choosing who gets to be a part of your team. If LFG were auto-matchmaking where you throw up your flag and someone can just click to join your group causing you to be locked into a raid then you're taking on too much risk for something that's too big of a time suck. And then no one wins. Not the lonely player looking for a group and not the group just looking for extra meat. For example, there's a kinda sorta LFG system in Dota. If me and 3 other buddies need just one more guy for ranked play, then we're taking on a ton of risk for bringing aboard someone who is a troll or worse. More often than not we'll just queue up for a match, but half the time that person goes AFK, abandons, trolls, or just plain sucks. It helps to at least take a quick look to see if the guy we're taking on doesn't have a history of abandoning or feeding.

Again, preaching to the choir.

Why is it that when it comes to Fresh, I seem to be the only one capable of shooting the messenger and still be receptive to the message?

I also think it's hilarious that we're using words like "risk" while talking about something that is supposed to provide casual entertainment and this is from the admitted tactics hardass of the board.

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I feel lost reading through this conversation. I never really looked through people stats or anything when joining games. I kind of just went with whatever I got. Of course I think Destiny is the only online game I've really played a decent amount.

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I don't think i ever asked for any unreasonable requirements when going on LFG to fill a spot. Sure having a Gjallarhorn for Crota helped. But you only needed 2 Ghorn rockets to drop him so why ask for 6? And having a Spindle and Touch helped in King's Fall but again, as long as you had 3 or 4 people with the preferred weapons who could actually hit their shots it didn't matter. In fact, it didn't matter at all for King's Fall since Black Spindle wasn't out until after KF dropped. The only indication Touch of Malice gave you was that they had beat the raid at least once since you had to to complete the quest for it. Did all these weapons help? yes. But the raids were hardly impossible to complete without them. Any tracking rocket for Crota and any high impact sniper for King's Fall and there's no reason you couldn't beat it if you knew what you were doing. They got it right with Wrath of the Machine, there wasn't really any weapons requirements. I know a lot of people asked for Dark Drinker but unless you were a very coordinated group it didn't make a huge difference. And most LFG groups wouldn't be that coordinated out the gate anyway.

I think the only requirements we ever posted for a raid was 'know what you are doing' and 'don't be a dick'. And most of the times the only requirement was 'don't be a dick'. I've done a bunch of raids with people who've never beat them before. There's nothing in the Vault that required more than 4 people (without cheesing) and nothing in Crota that required more than 1 for the mechanics to actually work (assuming you cheesed the bridge. Everyone cheesed the bridge). It was only really the last 2 encounters in King's Fall and Wrath of the Machines where you really needed to be on point with your communication and would struggle with people who'd never done it before. I don't think we ever met any bad people though LFG. We had a few that took it a little to seriously but on the whole we met some pretty decent people that we played with on and off for most of those 2 years.

So yeah, i'm all for in-game LFG. Unless Bungie pull any surprises i cant see how it could be worse than what we currently have.

The only thing i'll miss from grimoire is not having something to read on the toilet i guess!

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I will miss hunting for Dead Ghosts more than I will the actual Grimoire, but I like game lore so if it is going the way of the dinosaur, the story had better be as immersive as they say it will be.

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