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APRIL 2017 WRESTLING DISCUSSION


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Just now, Craig H said:

UFC at one point had 500+ fighters under contract. Exactly what spot did Punk take? Should all famous fighters or wrestlers help out smaller promotions? Or is Vic just in a total bubble?

He took a PPV spot and payday away from someone who most likely had actually participated in a professional MMA match before.

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5 minutes ago, Dewar said:

How is Punk taking a spot on a UFC card any different than the part-timers he complained about taking spots at WrestleMania?

Because UFC is functionally as different as possible from WWE when it comes to which fighters to place on which cards. And again, you can say he took a spot, but if Gall doesn't face Punk, do you really think Gall would have had his 3rd pro fight on a PPV?

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2 hours ago, Craig H said:

He did an interview with ABC 7 in Chicago saying WWF was never his end goal. He watched WWF as a kid, but he was more about AJPW and NJPW while growing up and coming up through the indies. The main reason would be to go over to Japan and do his thing there and then be able to come home and not be as recognized.

 

Nothing stopping him in from inquiring about NJPW/AJPW/NOAH.

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Moving the goalposts. This is about Punk being a hypocrite, and nothing to do with Gall.

If Punk's first fight was not on PPV, then another fight would have been. So I guess he took away two fighters chance to make an impression, while giving a chance for increased exposure to Gall.

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Just now, Dewar said:

He took a PPV spot and payday away from someone who most likely had actually participated in a professional MMA match before.

Ok, who then? Who did he take a spot from?

He was used to build up a prospect that Dana discovered.

And again, Gall isn't on the PPV card without Punk, or do you want to say that Gall shouldn't have been on PPV as well?

This also totally ignores how contracts are structured.

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Just now, Craig H said:

Because UFC is functionally as different as possible from WWE when it comes to which fighters to place on which cards. And again, you can say he took a spot, but if Gall doesn't face Punk, do you really think Gall would have had his 3rd pro fight on a PPV?

How conveniant for Punk and his various sycophants.

UFC could have put one of its already contracted fighters against Punk. They used Gall because they were hoping Punk could beat Gall. Which could for Gall, at least someone benefitted from the self absorbed ass MMA fantasy camp. 

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Just now, Dewar said:

Moving the goalposts. This is about Punk being a hypocrite, and nothing to do with Gall.

If Punk's first fight was not on PPV, then another fight would have been. So I guess he took away two fighters chance to make an impression, while giving a chance for increased exposure to Gall.

That's not how UFC PPVs and matchmaking works.

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Just now, (BP) said:

Was Punk's issue part-timers or that he wasn't treated as importantly as them? It doesn't make him less of an asshole, but there's a distinction there. 

The impression I got is because he was treated less important than them. I know he thought him and Undertaker should have main evented Mania.

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1 minute ago, Craig H said:

That's not how UFC PPVs and matchmaking works.

UFC signed Punk to get a freakshow match on PPV for a big buyrate. They signed Gall hoping he might be weak enough for Punk to beat. It is not this complex thing. 

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8 minutes ago, Victator said:

I think for 500,000 bucks any of us would get beat up for a minute or two on ppv. All it takes is a lack of dignity. 

 

 

You don't have much in the chamber past sarcasm do you?

Punk very publically decried WWE using part timers during his time in the company. Please explain how this is different? 

Punk very publicly explained that he detested the reliance of part timers because full timers like him are there to take the loss to someone who is just there for part of the time and then they're gone. Meanwhile, he's still there and is supposed to look strong in the face of just losing to someone who split?

I feel like I'm repeating this to a wall, but UFC contracts and WWE contracts couldn't be any different. WWE contract: You're signed for a set period of time. UFC contract: You're brought in for a set number of fights, like 2 to 3 fights and you make the amount on your contract per those fights. I'll ask the question more directly, for any fighter UFC brings in that flames out after 1 or 2 fights, are they a part-time guy? That's precisely the situation Punk was/is in. That's the situation many in the UFC are in. It's not the same situation because you're fighting on one show and then your next fight probably isn't for another 6 to 8 weeks at the shortest.

Punk's point had to do with losing to a part-timer on PPV and then him being the one who has to go on Raw the next night, and the week after that, and the week after that. The other point had to do with how long other guys had been in the company who lost a main event spot because of a part timer and their name value.

Punk didn't take up any main event spot. He also lost to Gall. No one else on that card or the one before or the one before that then had to come out and try to represent themselves the next night. And if you're getting a main event spot on a UFC PPV, it's because it's a championship fight, your name value and the value of the fight because of the records of each fighter are so huge, or each main eventer's record warrants the spot because it's also setting up a #1 contender or something else. There are obviously some exceptions, but I fail to see how any of THAT equates to what Punk said about part-timers in WWE.

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8 minutes ago, Victator said:

UFC signed Punk to get a freakshow match on PPV for a big buyrate. They signed Gall hoping he might be weak enough for Punk to beat. It is not this complex thing. 

And this is where I check out. There's no point in continuing.

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1 minute ago, Craig H said:

And this is where I check out. There's no point in continuing.

So they were hoping Gall would win? If this is not the case why not use one of the many fighters YOU said they had under contract? Why did it take so long to find someone to fight Punk? 

If Punk had not been fighting on the card, they would have needed another match. I feel confident the card does not have a blank spot for celebrity/freakshow fights.

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http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/vince-mcmahon-wwe-biopic-pandemonium-landing-at-tristar-987511

TriStar Pictures is getting into the ring for a biopic about WWE chairman and CEO Vince McMahon.

The studio is in negotiations for the highly-sought-after Pandemonium, which has Glenn Ficarra and John Requa, who direct and executive produce the hit television drama This Is Us, in talks to direct. Craig A. Williams wrote the script, and Andrew Lazar, who produced American Sniper, is producing the project along with Michael Luisi, president of WWE Studios, and Adam Goldworm of Aperture Entertainment. Charlie Gogolak of Zaftig Films will executive produce.

Pandemonium first hit the Hollywood mat last summer but studios hesitated. While the script scored high points, WWE and McMahon had not blessed it and companies didn't want to antagonize a powerful entity. When Lazar secured McMahon's life rights, the package in recent weeks made the rounds again and studios were ready to rumble. Multiple parties were interested, but sources say that TriStar went all out in their pitch (even decorating their offices with WWE regalia). Hannah Minghella and Nicole Brown will oversee for TriStar.

McMahon, known for his iconic showmanship, created the national sensation and obsession that is known as World Wrestling Entertainment, aka WWE.

After being raised by his mother and a series of stepfathers in North Carolina, McMahon first got into wresting through his father Vincent J. McMahon, who was a promoter for Capitol Wrestling Corporation. He shadowed his father (whom he didn't meet until he was 12 years old) when he was a teen and, after college, made his debut as an in-ring announcer in 1969 working for his father’s World Wide Wrestling Federation (later called World Wrestling Federation) promotion. He spent years as a very successful promoter and commentator for TV matches.

He founded his own company, Titan Sports, in 1979, and soon after acquired his father's company (which was later renamed WWE due to a trademark dispute). He ruffled feathers in the industry by starting to promote his company nationally at a time when wrestling organizations were regional and worked under an understanding that they would not invade each other’s territories.

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13 minutes ago, Victator said:

So they were hoping Gall would win? If this is not the case why not use one of the many fighters YOU said they had under contract? Why did it take so long to find someone to fight Punk? 

If Punk had not been fighting on the card, they would have needed another match. I feel confident the card does not have a blank spot for celebrity/freakshow fights.

There's no point in me saying any more to you on the subject, so I'll let Elsa and a couple others from the Boxing and MMA forum do it for me:

On 9/11/2016 at 1:39 AM, Elsalvajeloco said:

I believe Patrick Wyman made the point on the Sherdog roundtable. When Punk signed in 2014, UFC was coming off their worst year financially in years. Since then, they have a had multiple PPVs above million buys, broken a bunch of PPV/revenue records, and created two giant superstars. Punk is a good draw for mid level PPVs like this that can probably get to 400-500k buys, but you don't exactly need Punk now.

 

 

On 9/11/2016 at 1:38 AM, Edwin said:

How is Punk not respecting the sport? He said in the post fight press conference he wanted to fight in smaller organizations, but the UFC made him a great offer and he accepted it.

Also lol @ "Punk should have respect for the sport..."

 

On 9/11/2016 at 1:08 AM, Elsalvajeloco said:

Except people were saying this from the beginning though. Gall was someone who was maybe 9 months to a year away from being the UFC. If you pick any person on the WWE roster now who can cut to 170 or 185, they can't beat anyone like that save for maybe those who have legitimate amateur wrestling experience. Even then...it's dicey because they haven't grappled against someone who is legitimately a great submission grappler. To accept a fight with no prior martials arts experience (whether it's BJJ, muay thai, folkstyle wrestling, boxing, judo or TMA) with someone like that is extremely crazy especially at 37 years old. It would be like the guy who lives next door challenging a young kid who is on the USA Boxing team to a professional four rounder. Unless your neighbor is a boxer with good amateur or pro boxing experience, he is going to get fucked up. That's what's going to happen. Everyone knows that. Now if he wanted to fight some scrub on the same level physically, that would be fine. That's basically what Rogan said. I mean it would be putrid to watch, but hey, it's CM Punk. That didn't stop people from watching Kimbo, Dada 5000, Ken Shamrock, and 7 thousand year old Royce Gracie. Batista did it so people would be fine with Punk doing it. Against Gall? Yeah, that went 100% how it was going to go.

 

 

On 9/12/2016 at 11:56 AM, Elsalvajeloco said:

If Punk was good enough to be an actual BJJ black belt, the whole tenor of the matchmaking would have changed though. Gall wouldn't have called out a legitimate black belt in Brazilian jiu-jitsu when he himself was only a purple or brown belt at the time. Gall called him out because he knew Punk had no experience at anything MMA related besides training with Rener Gracie a little and maybe some questionable kempo karate experience. Gall would have just been some dude on Lookin for a Fight, who fought on Fight Pass. Basically, he would be doing what Randy Brown is doing right now and basically just be some prospect guy. 

Also, it wouldn't have took 21 months for him to fight because he would have been skilled enough at one attribute to compete. I dunno if you guys watch all the preliminary fights like me, but there are some dudes who don't belong in the UFC who could lose to someone who only knows BJJ especially a black belt. If he had a black belt, he would have smoked Mike Jackson who fought Gall for the right to fight Punk. He was just some journalist who did kickboxing and MMA in his spare time and notoriously terrible on the ground. He would have beat Anton Zafir, who is just a school teacher in Australia. There are a couple TUF Nations dudes from Australia still on roster, who I doubt would be in the UFC if the UFC wasn't doing regular shows in Oceania. He could probably beat them just with BJJ. He could work on BJJ arm drags and trips and beat those dudes if he had any athleticism to speak of to go along with his black belt.

That's four or five people off the top of my head without looking at the full roster at welterweight. There are a ton of great fighters at 170, but there is still a ton of bums at the bottom though.

 

On 9/10/2016 at 11:40 PM, Elsalvajeloco said:

You realize there are some complete jobbers out there who aren't legit brown belts in BJJ or up and coming prospects right? The fight would be horrible looking, but still...

 

 

On 12/17/2016 at 9:54 PM, Elsalvajeloco said:

Dude, Dana found Mickey Gall (well technically Lou Neglia did but you get the point) on the Lookin for a Fight series. They knew he was gonna beat CM Punk. They're trying to build him up.

Also, as I said, Gall is about 1-2 years away from being able to beat a solid, mid tier welterweight. Anyone with takedown defense has a shot to upset him. It's going to be hard to find viable, low level opponents for him. Sage was at the level he is at. Every other notable WW is above not only Sage but Gall as well. Hence, why Gall is talking about 155.

 

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So basically they booked the freakshow fight to speed up Gall's development? You know that really doesn't change anything?

And I don't blame anyone for taking 500,000 to get beat up for two minutes. It does seem stupid if you are already wealthy. But that is still a lot of money to pass up. 

Once again (and I know you'll ignore it) is he is a person who has pretended like he is more than someone chasing fame and money. In the end he is scum like everyone else, but he won't admit it. Or even his sycophants. 

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I loved Punk during his SES days. I mean I was all in.

 

He lost me when his inflated sense of importance convinced him he was on Taker's level the later on, Brock's. I just couldn't suspend my belief against them. 

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