APRIL 2017 WRESTLING DISCUSSION

[Brian Fowler]

10 hours ago, Wyld Samurai said:

That middle turnbuckle jumpstart across the ring clothesline thing.... I hate that more than the lunatic thing

This. Dear God this. It's the worst regular spot any WWE guy does.

It's no secret I hate Ambrose as both a worker and a character, but he was massively over and they did absolutely fuck it up either because they didn't want him as the lead face or because they are just that fucking incompetent.

Or, most likely, both. 

They've become so obtuse and totally locked into both the idea that the brand is more important than the workers and that they'll pick their top guy regardless.

I mean, it took Daniel Bryan reaching "most over guy in a decade" status for them to even give him a shot at the main event, and when the SummerSlam buyrate wasn't massive*  they instantly decided to punt on it and turn Bryan heel. Even with audiences in full revolt, the only reason they went back to him was a college football team adopting his Yes thing. 

I know things ended badly with Bryan's health, but if they would have just rode the wave from SummerSlam, they could've at least had him growing as the top guy for the 8 or 9 months.

Ambrose never got that high, but it's the same syndrome.

*it was down from Brock/Triple H in 2012, but basically even with 2011, and 2012 was a huge outlier, the only year the buyrate actually went up in a several year period.

[Brandon Bones]

One has to wonder if the lack of faith in WWE booking made people back off of buying that SummerSlam.  It was impossible to imagine them putting Bryan over Cena.

 

At least that why *I* didn't buy the show.

[Wyld Samurai]

6 hours ago, Casey said:

What possible reason would a worker need to be able to cut a promo on a dime during an interview that's out of character for 99.9% of the time? Is Al Roker going to ask John Cena to cut a promo on him the next time he's on the Today Show?

Al Roker went off the script at Mania when he introduced Miz & Maryse. He totally worked a dig in. 

I guarantee Cena can cut a promo on a dime. The greats can do that. Dusty, Jake, Flair, Arn, Larry, Bockwinkle, Hayes, Piper, Austin, Funk, Foley, etc... The greats who knew their ring personas inside and out can do that, and back in the day HAD to do that. 

Hell, I'm sure a number of us here could throw down a promo in the style of any iconic character at the drop of the hat. 

It's really no different than freestyle rap. Scan your environment, find a catalyst, and work it. 

The thing with Ambrose, is that when he signed on he thought it was a joke that the promos were not in the hands of the wrestlers. But the first chance he's given to cut an original promo he chokes. 

[Casey]

1 minute ago, Wyld Samurai said:

I guarantee Cena can cut a promo on a dime. The greats can do that. Dusty, Jake, Flair, Arn, Larry, Bockwinkle, Hayes, Piper, Austin, Funk, Foley, etc... The greats who knew their ring personas inside and out can do that, and back in the day HAD to do that. 

It's not the 70s, 80s, or 90s. These people don't have to stay in character all day, every day. They don't NEED to know their character inside and out, they don't need to live and breathe the character. There's not a perfectly acceptable reason for anyone to do that anymore (and, yes, it's dumb when actors do it too). 

Yeah, okay, he "choked". I say he was confused because for damn near an hour the interview was a straight forward, one on one, "tell me about your life and how you got here" type of podcast. Then, in the closing moments, Austin got himself worked up and tried to get Ambrose to cut a promo. Because Austin lives in that bubble that you and a lot of other people still seemingly do - that these guys need to go back to "how it used to be" and all that shit. I scoff at the idea that people think Ambrose can't cut a promo on a whim, since he's done it numerous times on the indies and was compared to Foley by a lot of people at the time. But he "chokes" after an hour long regular interview when Austin turns it into a kayfabe interview? Riiiiight.

[Wyld Samurai]

It doesn't matter if it's the 80s or present day. When you know your character you are your character. 

Cena knows his character. He can tear into any one of us at the word "go". Is he from the 80s? He absolutely shredded The Rock on live TV. You just dont do that.  You don't make The Rock stutter and Cena did just that.

[Casey]

And we're assuming Ambrose can't do the same because Steve Austin blindsided him on the Network and put him on the spot? Yeah, sure, let's compare that scenario to John Cena and The Rock, who knew they were going out there with no script and just laid into each other. Makes perfect sense.

And it does matter what era they're in. The years I mentioned, they were pretty much required to be their in-ring personas at all times. Now? It's not necessary, at all. Period.

[ReiseReise]

7 hours ago, piranesi said:

 

My second though is "God, their son turned out to be a disappointment."

He wasn't outstanding by any means, but a pretty solid hand nontheless.

[JohnnyJ]

Austin always tells the "what's so stunning about stunning Steve" story. With guys like Ambrose and Ziggler they both have gimmicks (Ambrose being nuts,  Ziggs being a show stealer) which don't deliver. Add in the fact that during a time period when C-Show matches are at least average each need to be in the ring w a miracle worker to have a match above three stars and it's no surprise they're each in wrestling purgatory.

[BubblegumRogue]

I think the biggest problem with Ambrose's failings with his character are that a character like that needs a more freewheeling environment to exist in. Its hard to be "crazy" in a PG world without coming off as "wacky". Its like watching a TV edit of a hard R movie on TBS. You're gonna miss a lot of the stuff that made it stand out because of it playing for a family audience.

As far as the Austin podcast thing goes, yeah, he dropped the ball. I don't care what era you are from, you should be able to pick up on the vibe of a situation and react accordingly. I'm sure Dean has been in situations before where he has to deal with fans who think this shit is real. You have to be in character when you respond to them, they don't understand anything different. Its really not that dissimilar if a situation, and you know that dude has the chops to thrive in that situation. He dropped the ball.

[Craig H]

Here's a question: How was Stevie Richards not a bigger deal in WWE? Good looking guy, good worker, could cut a promo, not really injury prone, and I don't recall hearing that he was a total dipshit backstage. Seems like all the ingredients were there to have a upper midcard to main event star, but his ceiling wound up be the RTC angle. What went wrong?

[Web Conn]

"Too nice" probably, he's not a dick so Cince thought he didn't have enough "ruthless aggression".

[Playa Shunna Ver 3.0]

He got a pretty good run as the leader of the RTC.  But there was really nowhere to go from there since it was a Vince revenge gimmick and it played it's course quickly.  

[Curt McGirt]

What was it revenge for?

I guess if he was really mad Vince could've stuck him with Raven again so he just got bullied constantly (except "Who the fuck hired Raven?").

[Playa Shunna Ver 3.0]

1 minute ago, Curt McGirt said:

What was it revenge for?

I guess if he was really mad Vince could've stuck him with Raven again so he just got bullied constantly (except "Who the fuck hired Raven?").

Sorry, the RTC was meant to mock the PTC since they were anti-WWF and Vince fucking hated them so he openly mocked them on his TV shows.  

[Curt McGirt]

Ah. I missed that whole era personally so I didn't remember all the details of the gimmick. 

[mattdangerously]

The RTC gimmick was a great spot for Richards to be in, though.  It was a total heat magnet, and they got a ton of camera time, which Stevie getting to cut promos nearly every week.  And Vince was probably laughing his ass off at watching them get their comeuppance.  Let's face it, his WWF run could have been a lot worse.

[Matt D]

1 minute ago, mattdangerously said:

The RTC gimmick was a great spot for Richards to be in, though.  It was a total heat magnet, and they got a ton of camera time, which Stevie getting to cut promos nearly every week.  And Vince was probably laughing his ass off at watching them get their comeuppance.  Let's face it, his WWF run could have been a lot worse.

Plus it can't be understated just how many culls he survived. He basically went from August 99 to August 2008, right?

[mattdangerously]

Yeah.  And he was mostly managing during RTC, so he wasn't taking nearly as many bumps. 

[Niners Fan in CT]

8 hours ago, Brandon Bones said:

One has to wonder if the lack of faith in WWE booking made people back off of buying that SummerSlam.  It was impossible to imagine them putting Bryan over Cena.

At least that why *I* didn't buy the show.

This makes sense. I had people coming over for SummerSlam as I often do so either way I was getting it but I did not expect Bryan over Cena. I expected a very good match and a hard fought loss from Bryan which I think I would have been okay with even if that's not the preferred result. 

I'm having the same feelings, worse actually, about Roman's next coronation.  I don't FUCKING CARE about it. I should care right? I mean Lesnar and Reigns had an awesome match at WM31 but I already know the entire buildup is going to be boring and Roman going over is boring because they are so heavy handed with it and there's no thought put into anything. It's all "look at how awesome Roman is!" and I say okay sure he's a good wrestler but that's not enough.  The character is stale. He's still wearing Shield gear.  I mean really.  Creative puts no thought into any of this. He just beat the Undertaker because it's his yard now. The buildup could not have been any lazier.  

[Curt McGirt]

Just in case you wanted to see Cena curse a lot. NSFW

[ReiseReise]

I think WWE has messed up up-and-comers and the speciality of them winning the big one quite a lot over the last decade or so. The last big Mania title win for a new guy was Batista. Since Money in the bank they mostly rely on having the "excitement". VERY often they give MITB guys weird depushes, having them loose matches in their build up and such.

Reigns is the only new guy I can think of who didn't get a weird depush. He looses once in a while and Strowman beat him up in glorious fashion recently. But he was groomed for superstardom from Day 1 during the SHIELD days. Yet they even managed to ruin his "moment".

 

[Spritenaut 32]

I can kinda see the argument that Austin blind-sided Ambrose after conducting most of the interview as a shoot.  At the same time, if I'm going to go all in on a guy's push and hand him a live mic on a weekly basis, I'll sleep a lot better if I know the guy can think of his feet and improvise when the situation calls for it.  I'd be surprised if Dusty, Hogan. Piper, etc. couldn't cut promos on the spur of the moment.

I don't really believe the Austin interview cooled down Ambrose that much.  It's probably a combination of creative being inept, Pillman characters being hard to do in a PG environment, and Ambrose being Ambrose.  I'm not a big fan of Ambrose's ringwork or moveset and what I've seen of his real-life personality doesn't make me think he has the chops or natural personality to pull off his gimmick.  Like someone said above, he seems like a slacker on Total Divas.

 

[odessasteps]

Ambrose should morph the character, as someone said, a pg version of an r rated character.

"yippe kiyae mother trucker" and such. 

[Sublime]

 

11 minutes ago, ReiseReise said:

I think WWE has messed up up-and-comers and the speciality of them winning the big one quite a lot over the last decade or so. The last big Mania title win for a new guy was Batista. Since Money in the bank they mostly rely on having the "excitement". VERY often they give MITB guys weird depushes, having them loose matches in their build up and such.

Reigns is the only new guy I can think of who didn't get a weird depush. He looses once in a while and Strowman beat him up in glorious fashion recently. But he was groomed for superstardom from Day 1 during the SHIELD days. Yet they even managed to ruin his "moment".

 

And they've ruined his moment so many times.

1) His Rumble win, why announce the most over guy in the company is going to be in the Rumble, which would signal to most if not all of your audience the built in story of the champ who never lost his title trying to get it back when it was suppose to be used to get Roman over. 

2) His 1st Mania main event, he goes out there goes toe-to-toe with the man who ended the Streak and mauled John Cena looks like an bad ass in the match and......Seth wins and carries the belt for way to long.

3) Survivor Series he gets the belt again and Sheamus (who had done nothing other than win MITB since coming back) boots him and takes the belt. Which lead to his renewed friendship with Ambrose that did help he start getting face reactions for a bit but then when the Rumble comes down to HHH and Dean Roman sits on the floor pouting instead of helping his friend stick to the guy he hates.

4) He retires the Undertaker.......that was never going to make someone more popular.

Roman has his faults but the writing has done so very little to help him. Plus the general booking  is like anti-Heyman ECW logic these days, accentuate the negatives and hide the positives 

[Burgundy LaRue]

If rumors are to be believed, Roman/Taker rehearsed two possible finishes with Vince making the final choice on WM Saturday. My guess is that Vince kept trying to get Taker to come back for WM 34 but was continually told to fuck off by the Deadman. So I can sort of see why that may not had as much build. They didn't know what to expect until the last night before.

But when they have cases like that or Brock, you'd think they would know how to plan for that by now.  How hard is it to get Brock/Heyman to fly into Stamford one day and film 2-3 vignettes that can be used in their absence? If Brock would allow it, send a video crew to his compound and show him training. This doesn't seem hard to do.

We can talk all day about stale characters, weird career stalls, and all that.  But so much comes down to Creative.  If they don't put performers in the right place and then allow them some freedom to self-create, then we're just talking in circles.