Jump to content
DVDVR Message Board

2017-2018 NCAA BASKETBALL SEASON


RIPPA

Recommended Posts

My school did have a huge scandal in 2002 or so. 

There was a summer basketball camp for women's players. The men's team stuck around campus. There was a big party and two kids (including future NBA player Gary Neal) took advantage of a drunk girl. They were arrested and kicked out of school immediately. Then a woman's player came forward and said a separate men's player sexually assaulted her the year before AND that she told both the men's and women's coaches, who did nothing about it (after the woman's player told them not to).

Our school promptly fired both the coaches since they didn't follow reporting rules in terms of a sexual assault. There wasn't any hedging -- a day of an investigation and then an announcement. (The men's coach was Billy Hahn, who went on to be Bob Huggins' right-hand-man/drinking buddy.)

Mind you, we got hammered in the local press for this, especially by one Stephen A. Smith who thought the school wasn't fair to the men's players and kicked them off the team unjustly. (He's such a garbage human.)

I think the pretty universal reaction to everything from our program was "this is embarrassing and these people need to get as far away from our campus as possible." 

I think it boils down to accepting that college kids will do bad things, especially when drinking and the like. And they need to be held accountable for actions (just like everyone should). There also need to be adults in place to act responsibly and to make decisions about behavior. And if those adults don't act responsibly, they have to leave ASAP.  

Lousiville is the exact opposite of this. Like... how can anyone possibly justify not firing Pitino after one of his assistant coaches paid hookers and strippers for players and recruits? It's repulsive.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The NBA could get serious about the G-League. Just make the salaries even a little more comparable to what you can get overseas and they'd have a decent talent level. If you throw in the Zion Williamson or Begley or someone like Fultz or the Kentucky players, people would watch that. You'd also need to get good coaches, but that's not impossible. 

Someone could actually put together a league approximating that if they had enough backing and could get enough arena dates or play in cities like (er) Louisville. 

At least that way, there's a choice. Kids who have a realistic shot or aspirations of playing professional basketball don't have to deal with the joke that is college. The NCAA is still an option for good players who aren't at that level -- they can actually go to school for an education. And the NCAA will now have a competitor, which gives them an incentive to give some money to players. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, sabremike said:

This is the biggest most disgusting lie that the NCAA sells. These guys are there to play basketball. By design 98% of their time is focused on basketball. Their education takes a total backseat to basketball. The "education" they receive is a complete and utter sham and the diploma they are given isn't worth the paper it's printed on. Do you really think people who spend the semester practicing all the time and flying across the country for games are getting a real education? No way.

Probably the best idea would be to ban sneaker companies from making endorsement deals with coaches and schools at all. And stop the jersey sales, and whatnot. Then make reforms so that the students can better take advantage of their education, say allow scholarships to be held in credit instead of used during their season, or anything else that makes sense. The amount of kids who are being "exploited" are far smaller than the kids that benefit. That sham degree, again from  say Kentucky, is still worth more than my real degree from Idaho State. Even if you make the NBA take them instead of the NCAA, the amount of players affected would be in the handfuls, at most. 

A better way would be to end the AAU bullshit and the constant pressure to be pro athletes. I know its not happening, but paying players because a relative few are not getting paid "what they are worth", wouldn't work. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Kuetsar said:

A better way would be to end the AAU bullshit and the constant pressure to be pro athletes. I know its not happening, but paying players because a relative few are not getting paid "what they are worth", wouldn't work.

Is there another place on the planet where you think paying people for the work they do won't work?  Seriously, this is a billion dollar industry they can pay the labor.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If we were just talking about the major programs, no.  But its not just them; you pay stud PF A from Kentucky, say, you will have to pay bench PG from ISU, too. And Idaho State(just using it as its my alma mater) budget is much smaller. Even if all you did was make it legal what's going on now, with the stip that it had to be public, I'm not sure its a cure for the bullshit. The assholes(boosters, coaches, execs) would still push the envelope and come up with the next thing.

I just think its Pandora's box, not a panacea. But I agree to disagree. . . . 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Kuetsar said:

If we were just talking about the major programs, no.  But its not just them; you pay stud PF A from Kentucky, say, you will have to pay bench PG from ISU, too. And Idaho State(just using it as its my alma mater) budget is much smaller. Even if all you did was make it legal what's going on now, with the stip that it had to be public, I'm not sure its a cure for the bullshit. The assholes(boosters, coaches, execs) would still push the envelope and come up with the next thing.

I just think its Pandora's box, not a panacea. But I agree to disagree. . . . 

I get what you are saying, but that is not a reason to exploit the PF from Kentucky.  He has a scarce, lucrative skill that someone else is making millions of dollars exploiting.   That is like your job telling you that they can't pay you, because some other, much smaller company would go out of business if they paid their employees what you are worth.  If Kentucky gets to the national championship game and that PF has a horrific Kevin Ware injury, the school makes millions he doesn't make a dime.  That is unjust, and it doesn't matter what happens to anyone else in any other place.  They can afford to pay him, and probably would if there weren't artificial, arbitrary rules in place to make sure he does not get paid.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
On 9/29/2017 at 9:32 AM, supremebve said:

I get what you are saying, but that is not a reason to exploit the PF from Kentucky.  He has a scarce, lucrative skill that someone else is making millions of dollars exploiting.   That is like your job telling you that they can't pay you, because some other, much smaller company would go out of business if they paid their employees what you are worth.  If Kentucky gets to the national championship game and that PF has a horrific Kevin Ware injury, the school makes millions he doesn't make a dime.  That is unjust, and it doesn't matter what happens to anyone else in any other place.  They can afford to pay him, and probably would if there weren't artificial, arbitrary rules in place to make sure he does not get paid.

That's why I've always been steadfast the best option: Treat college sports as a federal work-study position.

That way, you're paying the players a little money- but it's federally mandated to be minimum wage for it and the equivalent of a minimum wage job.

It handles the biggest problem- the star PF from Kentucky makes the same amount as the star QB at Alabama, who makes the same amount as the bench player at Rhode Island, who makes the same amount as the standout wrestler at Iowa, who makes the same amount as the top women's basketball player at Connecticut...and they're all making the same as the kid working at the library or washing tables at the cafeteria.

It's not perfect, but it's the closest to fair you're going to get in the college ranks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, SorceressKnight said:

It's not perfect, but it's the closest to fair you're going to get in the college ranks.

 

Why is college different than anywhere else in society?

My issue is you should pay people what they are worth.  The PF from Kentucky is worth more in the market than a rower from Rhode Island and should be paid based on the worth of his talent like everyone else in America.  It doesn't matter if you are at a college, in an office, or a fucking astronaut, you should get paid based on your worth to your industry.  These dudes are worth millions and are getting zero.  They should get the millions they are worth.  Paying them minimum wage is just as unjust as paying them nothing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Kuetsar said:

Isn't it just like being an intern though? Exploited for a while to learn the skills you need and then you go get the job later? 

Unpaid internships are bad, too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

59 minutes ago, Kuetsar said:

Isn't it just like being an intern though? Exploited for a while to learn the skills you need and then you go get the job later? 

Not really.  There are plenty of well paid internships, especially in industries where people are well paid.  If someone is talented enough to work in any other industry they are allowed to go into that industry and make as much money as their talent allows them to make.  There is a whole structure in place to make sure athletes can't go into their chosen industry and make money.  If you are a great trumpet player, you can go to school on a scholarship and play in a professional orchestra.  If you are a great writer, you can go to school on scholarship and write 150 best sellers at the same damn time.  The only people with college scholarships who aren't allowed to get paid for the work they are doing at that college are athletes.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, RIPPA said:

UNC escapes "major sanctions"

I see you all have your shocked faces on

I know. The NCAA is an utter disgrace. They outright committed systematic academic fraud, what can an alleged university do that is worse than that?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, sabremike said:

I know. The NCAA is an utter disgrace. They outright committed systematic academic fraud, what can an alleged university do that is worse than that?

A basketball player at North Carolina is there to play basketball first.  We all know that.  The opportunity to go to school for a lot of college athletes is significant, but those players are required to fulfill their basketball requirements over their academic requirements. The entire concept of big time college sports is an exercise in systematic academic fraud, North Carolina was just worse at hiding it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, sabremike said:

I know. The NCAA is an utter disgrace. They outright committed systematic academic fraud, what can an alleged university do that is worse than that?

Cover up rape of minors for over a decade?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Raziel403 said:

Cover up rape of minors for over a decade?

Fair, but I'd argue that Ped State was horrible disgusting criminal activity. Academic fraud strikes at the very purpose and integrity of an alleged institute of higher learning.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, supremebve said:

Why is college different than anywhere else in society?

My issue is you should pay people what they are worth.  The PF from Kentucky is worth more in the market than a rower from Rhode Island and should be paid based on the worth of his talent like everyone else in America.  It doesn't matter if you are at a college, in an office, or a fucking astronaut, you should get paid based on your worth to your industry.  These dudes are worth millions and are getting zero.  They should get the millions they are worth.  Paying them minimum wage is just as unjust as paying them nothing.

But that's part of the problem because to pay these dudes the "millions" they're worth, that money will come by saying to the rower from Rhode Island "Sorry, I know you're one of the best rowers in the country- but we're dropping your sport because it's just not profitable like basketball is", which is the same thing as that. If not the Title IX factor again, which means that if you pay the PF from Kentucky in the six-figures, you have to pay a random female player from Kentucky a token six-figure income or else you're breaking the rules that way. At least minimum wage jobs will pay everyone the same level playing field that gives something that's fairer for ALL of college athletics, not just the big-ticket sports.

But let's assume for one second you're right and the PF from Kentucky should get more in the market because he's so valuable to the team. Let's say they should pay basketball players more money.

If you're doing that, then why should there be one and dones in the first place? What's the point of paying the PF from Kentucky 6 figures to go there if he's made it clear he's going to declare for the NBA Draft after one year? 

If you're going to pay people what they'd be worth in the open market in college basketball based on "their worth to the industry", then it's only fair to realize that their chosen industry of "being a basketball player" is built on a contract system with guaranteed contracts for four to five seasons as it is, and then turn around and say "You know what? Fine. You can have a six-figure salary to play PF for Kentucky...BUT you are under CONTRACT to Kentucky for four seasons. You're staying all four years of eligibility- you don't get to declare hardship and go into the NBA Draft because we just ENDED your hardships." 

Just like the "they're worth millions and are getting zero", the only logical option is to make it closer to a business on both sides: If a player thinks they have a shot at the NBA Draft the next season...they don't HAVE to sign a contract with a major college. They can go with a normal scholarship, go to Europe or China for a season and declare there, or do something else to make it possible to play the field and have a chance at a NBA career. If it's a lesser prospect who's not a no-doubt-about it pick, maybe they would say "Okay, I'll sign a four-year deal to make sure I'm paid to play at least once in my career"

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The NCAA needs to be blown up. No more athletic scholarships, anyone who wants to be a pro athlete can be drafted as soon as they complete high school. No other country in the world treats college athletics as a massive money making proposition, why does America need to?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think if colleges are going to continue to act as de facto minor leagues and player development for the NBA and NFL then the leagues need to start sharing in the cost of that, including that of compensating players.

I think the better solution is for colleges to tell the leagues to piss up a rope and go back to being a strictly amateur affair where a student athlete is actually a student first.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, SorceressKnight said:

But that's part of the problem because to pay these dudes the "millions" they're worth, that money will come by saying to the rower from Rhode Island "Sorry, I know you're one of the best rowers in the country- but we're dropping your sport because it's just not profitable like basketball is", which is the same thing as that. If not the Title IX factor again, which means that if you pay the PF from Kentucky in the six-figures, you have to pay a random female player from Kentucky a token six-figure income or else you're breaking the rules that way. At least minimum wage jobs will pay everyone the same level playing field that gives something that's fairer for ALL of college athletics, not just the big-ticket sports.

But let's assume for one second you're right and the PF from Kentucky should get more in the market because he's so valuable to the team. Let's say they should pay basketball players more money.

If you're doing that, then why should there be one and dones in the first place? What's the point of paying the PF from Kentucky 6 figures to go there if he's made it clear he's going to declare for the NBA Draft after one year? 

If you're going to pay people what they'd be worth in the open market in college basketball based on "their worth to the industry", then it's only fair to realize that their chosen industry of "being a basketball player" is built on a contract system with guaranteed contracts for four to five seasons as it is, and then turn around and say "You know what? Fine. You can have a six-figure salary to play PF for Kentucky...BUT you are under CONTRACT to Kentucky for four seasons. You're staying all four years of eligibility- you don't get to declare hardship and go into the NBA Draft because we just ENDED your hardships." 

Just like the "they're worth millions and are getting zero", the only logical option is to make it closer to a business on both sides: If a player thinks they have a shot at the NBA Draft the next season...they don't HAVE to sign a contract with a major college. They can go with a normal scholarship, go to Europe or China for a season and declare there, or do something else to make it possible to play the field and have a chance at a NBA career. If it's a lesser prospect who's not a no-doubt-about it pick, maybe they would say "Okay, I'll sign a four-year deal to make sure I'm paid to play at least once in my career"

If you work for Microsoft, should it matter how much someone gets paid at Walmart?  The rower in Rhode Island may be the best in the world at what they do, but what they do doesn't actually make any money.  The basketball team at Kentucky makes millions, and the only reason they make that money is because they consistently get the best players.  The players are what generate the income, but they don't see a dime of the money.  

There is no reason whatsoever why college basketball is even necessary.  Pay them however you want, just pay them.  If there is a contract system, I'm cool with it.  If they abolish the stupid, 1-year before they declare for the draft rule, I'm fine with that too.  Anything that stops people from getting paid for the millions of dollars they generate is wrong, and needs to be fixed.  I honestly don't care how they fix it.

We are supposed to live in a free market society.  These kids aren't doing anything illegal or immoral, they are playing a sport at a very high level.  There is no reason they shouldn't be paid other than the notion of amateurism which only exists to exploit people for profit.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, supremebve said:

If you work for Microsoft, should it matter how much someone gets paid at Walmart?  The rower in Rhode Island may be the best in the world at what they do, but what they do doesn't actually make any money.  The basketball team at Kentucky makes millions, and the only reason they make that money is because they consistently get the best players.  The players are what generate the income, but they don't see a dime of the money.  

There is no reason whatsoever why college basketball is even necessary.  Pay them however you want, just pay them.  If there is a contract system, I'm cool with it.  If they abolish the stupid, 1-year before they declare for the draft rule, I'm fine with that too.  Anything that stops people from getting paid for the millions of dollars they generate is wrong, and needs to be fixed.  I honestly don't care how they fix it.

We are supposed to live in a free market society.  These kids aren't doing anything illegal or immoral, they are playing a sport at a very high level.  There is no reason they shouldn't be paid other than the notion of amateurism which only exists to exploit people for profit.  

Again, it's more than just the way the rower in Rhode Island gets paid compared to the basketball team at Kentucky, and more that again, Title IX comes into play and if you pay that basketball player at Kentucky millions to play there, you have to pay some random female athlete an equal amount, even though the women's sport isn't nearly the cash cow the basketball team is. 

If they were willing to fix that somehow for TItle IX purposes (like, say- you can pay the PF at Kentucky six figures, but you have to institute four-five full scholarships to some female students to make it work for Title IX), then things get a little more clearer for how to do it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, SorceressKnight said:

Again, it's more than just the way the rower in Rhode Island gets paid compared to the basketball team at Kentucky, and more that again, Title IX comes into play and if you pay that basketball player at Kentucky millions to play there, you have to pay some random female athlete an equal amount, even though the women's sport isn't nearly the cash cow the basketball team is. 

If they were willing to fix that somehow for TItle IX purposes (like, say- you can pay the PF at Kentucky six figures, but you have to institute four-five full scholarships to some female students to make it work for Title IX), then things get a little more clearer for how to do it.

We are arguing two different things.  Here is my argument.

Take the NCAA rulebook and throw it in a trashcan.  Take Title IX and throw it in a trashcan.  Take any other rule that refuses to pay the people who generate the money in a billion dollar industry and throw it in a trashcan.  Now light that trashcan on fire.

Start making the new rules about how to pay the players like none of the old rules exist, because they are a raging bonfire of bullshit.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...